Nashville Fretworks does the relic'ing thing to about 100 guitars

[Kerry Krishna]

  These folks are doing a job that not many other folks are doing, and they seem to be getting quite the rep for it too. Have a look for yourself at these dozens of axes and tell me how realistic some of the relic'ing is... 

Relic'd axes galore

[Mark Pollock]

Funny, I was just reading a series of (painful to read) posts on the Banjo Hangout where people were debating the ethics and legality of making reproduction banjo necks with the Gibson name on them. Then I look at the work these guys are doing and see a recent MIM bass that has been very realistically relic'ed.

And you know what? I realized that there is NO difference between ordering a guitar with tons of pearl and inlay, and ordering a guitar with lots of special wear and tear. They are different kinds of finishes meant to convey different meanings to the audience. As long as there is no monetary fraud involved, then it's all good.
As long as the instrument isn't sold as an original, as long as there is full disclosure, then I hope the players enjoy them.

[Paul Verticchio]

Personally, I just don't "get" the whole relic thing. Ethically, there's no foul committed if it's sold as a replica instrument.

Here's what I can't wrap my head around: if we were going to buy a used guitar with that kind of wear/damage, we'd be negotiating the price down for each gouge & scratch. However, if it's fake aging, some folks pay out the arse for the same defects. Go figger, eh?

Thx for the cool pic's though, Kerry :)

[Ned Knepp]

 I looked at this this morning and started to post that I didn't get it but was afraid that I'd sound too critical. I actually think the artistry is astounding even if I don't understand some of the "wear" pattern they used. 

  Something that I wondered about was if  the musicians that commissioned these instruments want them to use on stage with the expectation that the "old" guitar will get them a certain level of credibility that they feel they need.  We've posted plenty of times about respecting the history of instruments but this ISN'T history, it's artistry. The instruments Isn't better because of the wear and while I love the artistry and even like the look, I couldn't get past the fact the look was not earned and, IMO, cheapens all those guitars that look like this because they were used, abused and survived. 

Kudos to the people getting paid for this service but I wish that it didn't happen. 

[Russell Vance]

Thanks Ned,

You managed to address this subject in a way that I was struggling to think through - "the look was not earned" is a great phrase and I intend to adopt it.  

Rusty.

[Paul Verticchio]

You'll be receiving licensing/royalty checks from me too for that expression, Ned :)

Thanks my friend :)

[Paul Verticchio]

"Something that I wondered about was if the musicians that commissioned these instruments want them to use on stage with the expectation that the "old" guitar will get them a certain level of credibility that they feel they need."

BTW Ned, around my parts, the 'real deal' players call those folks "posers". All we (heck, ANY dedicated player) need to establish credibility are 1.) A well tuned guitar; 2.) Passion & Emotion and 3.) Some folks to enjoy the results.

What I notice more & more among mature players (guys w/40+ years of playing under their belts) is that they (we) seem to sound the same no matter what gear we're playing and that our pedal boards get smaller & smaller (to eventually none at all) each year. Yep, it's all in a player's hands. But that is a different (and dangerous) subject :)

[Mark Pollock]

I'm really feeling like the devil's advocate today on this.

One of the things I like about some older electrics is the comfort factor. I notice that a worn instrument feels more comfortable. (Naturally, I realize that this is probably due to the instrument having been manufactured in a way that people find comfortable, which is why it is so worn.)

Could this comfort factor be part of the reason that people want these worn instruments? Is there a mental thing where people feel the instrument is easier to play because it is worn? Or are folks like Nashville Fretworks making these instruments more playable as they do their very fine detailing work? Perhaps they are doing very fine setup to these instrument as part of the aging process, making this instrument far more playable than your "fresh out of the box" alternatives.

I would not want to purchase a brand new worn instrument, but then, I can see the appeal of that comfort factor.

I think there is some fertile ground to explore here conceptually, what makes a player like one of these guitars? I suspect is it more that just being a poser.

[Thomas James]

IMHO Those do not look that good. I am not a huge fan of this fad, but Bill Nash does a far better job.

[Kerry Krishna]

Mark, what you said about full disclosure made perfect sense for me. For the most part though, these and almost all super easily I.D.'d as being brand new instruments, ( some of the models were only developed in the last few years) and the reason they are being relic'd  is because the owners think that they look wayyyyy cooler than brand spanking new axes. And in all actuality, I agree that they DO look cooler, but that is just my opinion. If I was given a side by side choice between a brand new one, and a relic'd one, I know exactly which one I would choose, no questions asked.

Ned,  the   'I wish it didn't happen' comment has me kinda puzzled. The only things that I assume you might mean ( And you know what they say about assuming things!)  is that only a newbee idiot would mistake a '09 Mexican Strat for a '69. But the folks that are doing the relic'ing are not reselling these things as originals, but just as new instruments that have been 'art-ified' in a really used looking way. 

  What is it about this process ( that I might add, makes a LOT of people feel cooler about themselves as players as well as making them happy) that irks you?

Is it just there there seems to be inherent fraud about doing this? I could understand that actually.

    In John Marchese amazing book "The Violin Maker" ( which I hope every single person reading this post would own and read) he custom makes a 35k fiddle for a VERA particular VERA well known player. The last thing that John does before the instrument leaves his shop, (he gives his customers a choice) is he makes the fiddle look like it is a few hundred years old. It's both amazing and true.

 New violins are not well thought of, or appreciated by many of the Concert Masters/Conductors/other players, so an axe that looks old and sounds mindboggingly good is the ONLY combination. In this case, it is 100% legitimate relic'ing. 

 Thomas, I am totally in agreement with your comment 'Those things do not look that good". I do not think that much of what they are doing looks at all like 'real world' aging at all. 

 There ARE a few things that they are doing which is incredibly cool. Some pictures of nitro finished axes that are not posted in this series, look absolutely amazing. Shatter patterns come VERA close to some of the vintage instruments I have seen., and these folks are doing a terrific job on all the metal.  I will be talking to them (they have already said that they WILL help me) about helping me refine my processes for doing metal, which I have done many times before.

 Having a brand new sparkly set of shiny machineheads on an 80 year old axe certainly does not wash with me. I have relic'd many sets of new banjo tuners, and 3 on a side machines so they looked old, old, old.

In my books, even the buttons get several processes done including acid baths/dyeing/staining and blackening of the underside nearest the post sometimes with with ebonized crazy glue. I have even copied the 'break in half'  patterns of buttons just about to fall off, and made it look real.

.

 Just to be clear, to my eyes, an 80 year old mandolin with buttons white enough to be seen from 100 feet away, looks totally phoney, and kinda makes me think that whoever put them on did not finish the job. 

Just to finish, many of you already know about my Fretboard Journal online story that was published year before last. I had a pro grade 50's marched sunburst put on the guitar, and nitro lacquered too.

 The 'new' top on this incredibly old beaten guitar looks like it belongs on a brand new guitar. I will certainly be dealing with this soon, and relic'ing it.  I want the top to actually LOOK like it belongs on this guitar...

Here it is, and thanks so much to Jason for ever considering it.My '52 Southern Jumbo story

[Peter Poyser]

Quote: "I notice more & more among mature players (guys w/40+ years of playing under their belts) is that they (we) seem to sound the same no matter what gear we're playing and that our pedal boards get smaller & smaller"

- Snipped for Shortness -

Quote: "Yep, it's all in a player's hands. But that is a different (and dangerous) subject :)"

 

 

Brilliant Observations.

To me, this is Absolutely Fundamental to a Basic Understanding of what makes a Great Guitar Player.

It is the Player themselves that makes the Real Difference, not simply the Gear.

So many are looking for that missing Tonal Magic Bullet.

In completely the wrong place.  

 

 

Quote: "Here's what I can't wrap my head around: if we were going to buy a used guitar with that kind of wear/damage, we'd be negotiating the price down for each gouge & scratch. However, if it's fake aging, some folks pay out the arse for the same defects."

Quote: "Something that I wondered about was if  the musicians that commissioned these instruments want them to use on stage with the expectation that the "old" guitar will get them a certain level of credibility that they feel they need.  We've posted plenty of times about respecting the history of instruments but this ISN'T history, it's artistry. The instruments Isn't better because of the wear and while I love the artistry and even like the look, I couldn't get past the fact the look was not earned and, IMO, cheapens all those guitars that look like this because they were used, abused and survived."

 

 

With the increasing availability of such Instruments.

Will this affect the value and price paid for Legitimate Historical Instruments possessing Deleterious Cosmetic Artifacts? I believe it will, beginning at the borders and edges of the Respective Markets.

Some time ago, I read the Shareholders Prospective of a Very Highly Respected Manufacturing Group. After reading it, I was struck by the perspicaciously illuminating  insight, that what they were actually  Selling was not a Product at all, although they Manufactured many Well Designed and Extremely Fine Products indeed.

What they were really in the Business of Selling, was in actual fact, an Idea. A Belief. The Notion that by simply purchasing one of their Products, Consumers could buy into a Certain Quality of Lifestyle and could thus lift themselves into a Higher Echelon of Society altogether. This astounded me at first, yet we see this effect at work everywhere on Marketing, with the Strong Effect of Branding.

Where Guitars are concerned. Owning a Relic, is all about Adding Kudos and Verisimilitude to the Artist Concerned. It is like a Brand Marque. It says to the Audience, "I am Authentic". A Performer of Considerable Experience. One that knows and chooses Fine Musical Instruments with Great Discretion, like the Performers I aspire to, clearly displaying my Immense Taste. I am Distinct from the Mass of Typical Players, all of which today seem able to afford Top Brands of High Quality Instruments.

It raises them above the Norm.

 

 

At least, in their own mind.

There are a few other things that are or may be involved with certain individuals.

One, is that the overwhelming majority of Players, were motivated by the inward urge to Learn to Play because of a certain Artist. In other words they had Hero's. Performers that had a Great Influence upon them, they may wish to emulate. And part of the voyage of discovery regarding themselves and their own talent, is to be naturally biased towards and attracted to The Type of Instruments their Guitar Hero's Favoured.

Second, is the fact that many people today, appear to suffer from a Deep Seated Image Problem. Their innate sense of Self Worth, and their consequent Self Image are depleted by a Powerful Inferiority Complex. This may not be obvious, in fact they may to all intents and purposes appear entirely "Normal" whatever that is, or indeed completely the opposite by way of compensating factors.

Yet, at the root of it all, there is an inner void, a missing ingredient, a hidden factor that informs and shapes so very many other aspects of their Lives. Consequently, they "Bathe" in the cheaply afforded, tarnished Reflected Glory, of anything, Instrument or other Device (that may involve Stage Craft) that can make them Stand Apart. This is a common enough trait amongst Artists, part of a Basic Psychological  Profile, but something that they may not understand  at all themselves. In fact, there may be a great many things they do at various times, they do not really understand at all. As the Galleries and Threads here actively demonstrate.

Thirdly. Well Established Artists may genuinely desire to avoid the need to take their most Valuable and Precious Vintage Musical Instruments on Tour, where they will most likely suffer the Vagrancies of High Temperature and Humidity Swings. Where they may become vulnerable to the unscrupulous and opportunistic at worst, and suffer further cosmetic damage at least.

Replacing these with an Identical Set of Specially Prepared Instruments, seems a perfectly legitimate course of action. Instruments that meet the expectation of the Audience, yet which an Artist can use in all Weather Conditions and Climates without undue concern.

They have they place and some Artists have these created, because Travelling Around the World with Wooden Musical Instruments, has become increasingly beset with complex international legal issues.

 

 

Quote: "I realized that there is NO difference between ordering a guitar with tons of pearl and inlay, and ordering a guitar with lots of special wear and tear. They are different kinds of finishes meant to convey different meanings to the audience. As long as there is no monetary fraud involved, then it's all good."

 

 

I think this is a good point that has been presented well.

However, acquainted as I am with the vagrancies and miscreancy of humanity.

I do believe it would be complete naive of us to consider that individuals will not attempt to dupe the ignorance of others, to their own advantage in the future. Perhaps not the Original Purchaser, but certainly it will inevitably become more commonplace, further down the line.

Today, this type of Rank Deceitfulness is Rife already, not only in the Guitar World but also in the Arena of Vintage Studio Recording Mic's and elsewhere, and is depriving innocent victims of substantial amounts through fraudulent activity.

I cannot conceive a scenario wherein the basic predatory acquisitive instincts of people predisposed to do so, will change. Mores the pity.

In time, this will only add momentum too and accelerate that trend.

 

 

 

P

[Ned Knepp]

Kerry,  What I mean by my "wish it didn't happen" comment is that I really, truly appreciate the old "War Horse" instrument that carries the scars of its life. I feel that the wear and damage are honest relics of it's past. I find a sort of honor and a sort of respectability in their look and feel and, to me, this is not related to value. I'm not one to think that a beat up guitar should be retired to non-use. In my way to viewing things, I feel that any guitar worth keeping should also be worth playing, even if it must be handled with care. In other words, If I own it, it's either playable and played or it's waiting to be made that way. I can't see any sense in  owning instruments that can't be played, even if it's only a little. 

I think that repairs are a completely different matter. I have no problem at all with the idea that a new part, or a repair to a vintage instrument should be made to match the patina of the original part. Along those lines, I have no issue with modifications to vintage instruments in the interest of improving their playability. I think it's pretty cool that you have found a way to relic the replacement bolts you need for your Kaycraft instruments and I completely understand the problem with putting bright new parts on an old instrument. At this time, I have two guitars in process that have both had their original bracing replaced with an "X" and I feel absolutely no guilt for doing so. One of them needs to have the tuners replaced and I'm watching for old replacements to rebuild or I will  order the vintage models from StewMac. In both cases, the guitar in question would never have played again without my intervention and will never be considered collectible. I believe they will be improved, and more importantly, actually played with the modification I'm making. This is something that would not have happened otherwise.   

As I said, I truly appreciate the artistry involved in the instruments that have been treated to the relic process but I "wish it didn't happen" because, as I said, it's unearned. There is no honor or respectability in their look, only artistry.

I did think, as Peter did, about the possibility that some established musician may want replicas of their best instruments while protecting those for home/studio use.  I'm aware of the treatment that "road" instruments get and wouldn't be happy subjecting my best guitars to it either. In fact I've mentioned before that I keep an old, not too good, Sigma for the simple reason that I have needed to use a guitar for "sunset beach firepit"  type sing-a-longs and I absolute refuse to take one of my best into that environment. In the end, I figured pretty much as Hesh did, that most players can do what is needed on a lesser instrument without the expense of making it look like their best/vintage guitars. 

BTW, I read "The Violin  Maker" again about a month ago. IMO, everyone interested in music should read it. I understand the "Need" to relic new "copies" of old instruments in this setting BUT I think that it's a shame that Zygmontowicz's work can't stand on it's own merit. IMO, in a perfect world, the sound and playability of an instrument would be the hallmark of excellence and how it looks wouldn't be an issue. I feel that an instruments look, while obviously important, is secondary or even tertiary to it's real value. If it's good and new, it's still good. The facsimile of age, contributes nothing to how "good" and instrument is. There is a certain "coolness" to these instruments but I just can't get past the "unearned" factor. Seeing a musician playing one of these "posers"  ( thanks, Hesh, I was trying to remember this term) guitars causes me to wonder about their skills too. How deep does the "posing" go? "Inquiring minds want to know."  

[Andrew]

Im in the same camp as most other posters on the thread: I get it, and appreciate the work, but at the same time I dont get it at all. Its obviously not the same as honest wear/character. Id be more inclined to buy a new guitar, ride it hard and put it away wet if I wanted that look. You know, play it in rooms full of smokers and spill your rum and coke on it, etc.