Plek

[FRANK]

 has anyone ever toyed with going out and Having a plek machine do the fret work on a new construction instrument ? Ive been thinking of this, 2010 I was at the Plek Booth at the NAMM show the guy there explained on my best day doing frets Id be 80% accurate I said no way Joe his response was yes it is, and his Machine would smoke me and so Now I Have some beautiful instruments coming to completion and I would only want the best for the customers that play them has anyone PLEK ed before ?

 

[Russell Vance]

Plek seems to me, at least, to just be another tool that Luthiers and guitar making businesses can utilize. 

I would feel a little more comfortable about the style tone and level of the discussion if the same negativity was expressed about other CNC based tools that are regularly used and generally accepted - such as the CNC's that carve guitar tops, bodies, necks  and cut out all sorts of acoustic components and inlays etc.   These are jobs that can be done well by hand similar to fret work, so why not a similar outcry?   Selective dismay and mutterings from the Luddites perhaps?

Regards the cost which seems to cause irrational outcry from all and sundry,  the afore mentioned CNC machines used by the larger Guitar making businesses are similarly priced to Plek (there are cheap small CNCs avialable as well, but these are limited in scope and performance) - in the hundreds of thousands of dollars  for commercial gear.  Even medium to small luthier based guitar businesses use them these days - so what is different between these machines and another  machine like a Plek?

Similarly,  luthiery businesses are subject to the same machinery depreciation schedules as any other business whereby the machine can be depreciated against taxed earnings and the upkeep can be similarly written down against tax (in most countries).   The money made by the machine is a return on investment (ie: it generates income)  and ultimately in high volume environments (capital cities for general luthiery, and production environments) the machine pays for itself quickly.  

It also cuts down on the need to employ additional skilled luthiers/labour (in my country nobody works for under 50k a year - the maths are simple) when large volumes of work are the norm. Processes associated with finish polishing and instrument set-up are unchanged from our usual day to day processes and are costed accordingly.  The machine does what is designed to do in a consistent and timely manner from what I can see.

I am not advocating here, but professional Luthiers need to understand the business end of things just like any other business these days.  For the enthusiast or competent amateur there is little to be had from my discussion but there is also no threat to their livelyhood by the introduction of these machines/tools. 

I could go on here, but, as these types of systems become more common and come down in price I should think they will become more recognised as a useful tool rather than a feared encroachment on our revered luthiery skills.  

I have absolutely no affilliation or empathy with anything to do with Plek and enjoy luthiery as a full time business,  but this conversation reminds me of the some of my professional photographer mates who predicted in days past that "these new fangled digital cameras will never replace silver photo development and highly skilled photo lab technicians".  So, don't shoot me.

Regards, Rusty.

[Ned Knepp]

What you say, Rusty, makes sense to me. Of course as a hobbyist, I'm neither threatened by or attracted to the idea of a Plek. I mentioned in a recent post that I like working with hand tools but that doesn't mean that I want to give up my nail guns or my power miter saw. As someone who once experienced the "joy" of sawing a 8 foot long 2X4 into 2 pieces down it's length with a hand saw, I can unequivocally say that I love table saws.  Generally speaking technology that is worth while  is usually accepted because it makes life easier and frees us to do other things or the same things faster. If it turns out that it's not worth while it usually fizzles away.  Plek is here. It will either end up being worth while or it will not.

[FRANK]

I shall see then thanks Rusty

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

Agreed, in spades!

 

[FRANK]

thanks Breakstone but I am only interested in trying it a few times to see if the end results are spectacular since I am only 80% accurate from what Ive been told , Ive also been told that this guy in San Fran is really good with it .

[Hesh Breakstone]

Since I am new here my first name is Hesh, yeah I got stuck with it but please feel free to call me Hesh if you wish.  Thanks!

 

Rusty and I hope you don't mind if I call you Rusty.  Not sure if you got the impression from me that negativity was my goal - far from it.  Instead my comments are my opinion and in some ways based on some experience with this matter as well since we did endeavor to set-up a fair comparison of hand work vs. PLEK work.  In any event my intent is not to be negative but my intent most certainly is to discus the topic at hand.

 

Sure a PLEK is nothing more than yet another Lutherie tool and very much not unlike a CNC machine.  As a builder of acoustic guitars I have used CNC parts to help me deal with repetitive tasks where one's "brand" has symbols of that brand such as head stock logos, bridges, that need to be uniformly recognizable or hopefully so.  My take on CNC in Lutherie has always been exactly what you indicated, Rusty.  It's yet another tool, not a threat, and not something that is going to take money out of my pocket although... the CNC guy I used from time to time was not cheap... ;)

 

But where I differ in opinion with you is the notion that discussing the economics of a PLEK and the resulting value that a PLEK offers which is also a consideration of it's capability in my analysis the numbers don't add up.  It's not that I fear or resent technology, far from it if you knew my background.  I am simply saying that this tool, a PLEK, in my estimation is going to require a business plan all it's own AND the proper opportunity meaning geographic location, number of PLEKable instruments and willing owners, and of course the opportunity cost of labor or no longer doing other Lutherie tasks in favor of PLEKing all day, every day, etc.

 

When I ran my numbers even with depreciation you would have to do an awful lot fret dressing (and refrets by the way) to make the thing pay for itself....  This is my beef - it's very expensive for what it does and what it does also in my view factors in the realities of how much fret dressing biz is available for the taking.

 

You are right the machine does do what it is billed to do but again where I take exception is this notion that a PLEK is capable of a superior job to what a skilled Luthier can produce.  And again let's not forget that the PLEK opperator really needs to be at least a bit of a Luthier in order to understand the concepts of fret dressing for different players with different styles, different types of instruments etc.  Again in a factory setting the generic program(s) may be fine and that is probably why some of us have to dress frets on brand new instruments that just had a PLEK job...  But for the one man shop that deals with what ever comes through the door we have to have an understanding of relief, results of different string gages and types, and of course playing styles too.

 

Anyway it's not fear on my part in fact I would love to have a PLEK so long as someone else paid for it... ;)  And I do appreciate technology and am usually the first to sing the praises of technology.  My issues with PLEK machines are the economics vs. the opportunity.  When as you rightly predict prices come down as I am sure too that they one day will provided that it pans out that PLEK itself remains viable at the prices that they need to charge are prohibitive for some... I'm going to revisit as needed and run the numbers vs. the opportunity again and again.

 

My primary concern and beef really is the notion that  PLEK is capable of a superior fret dress to what a skilled human can do - this I do not accept. 

 

I have no affiliation with PLEK either...;) and shooting me would just be a waste of time....

[Mac Walker]

Paul,

 

This machine is optimized for a high volume production environment, it excels at outperforming a human in this capacity only (reduces the need to train and manage people and manual processes).  I would only agree with the salesperson's statement in the context of a poorly managed high volume guitar factory that has a high turnover rate.  Although I would be interested in more information on his 80% qualification...

 

That having been said, not only could the machine smoke you, it could smoke the cash right out of your wallet as well....

 

[David Collins]

A Plek machine can certainly do things that a human can't in terms of volume and consistency, but for small scale work there are no limitations that cannot be overcome which prevent you from matching (or arguably exceeding) its results by other means.

 

I would say Joe may be right if he's comparing the industry norm of file/crown/polish/done dressing methods, but there are other ways of achieving more precision and greater consistency than this. If you're interested I'd be happy to share a summary of the tools, methods, and principles behind how my own procedures have evolved, and I'm sure others have developed more refined methods as well. It takes more time than a Plek can do the work in, but equal or greater precision is most certainly achievable by carefully executed hand lapping methods. 

[FRANK]

thanks David currently I am doing 3 to 5 fret jobs a week I am just curious please share

[chris snyder]

David, I would like to hear about it (and anyone else's methods), but it might be better to start it in a new thread.

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

the industry norm of file/crown/polish/done dressing methods, but there are other ways of achieving more precision and greater consistency than this

 

Abso-effin'-lutely!  And they don't require six figures' worth of machinery, either.

[FRANK]

Jeffery explain Plz