bridge cut into the top!!! Martin 1983 D28

[Fritz Froeschner]

Has anyone run into anything this, augh, stupid before? The owner said he took it to someone to have the action lowered, the “repair person” instead of doing a neck set evidently chiseled out a hole in the top to lower the bridge… this stuff really upsets me… anyway, as you can image, there is just a wisp of the spruce top left and he actually went all the way thru to the plate in one area, you can see the grain lines of the plate on the treble side in the bridge footprint. I told him I would take the bridge off and see what I found. There is also a pronounced belly behind the bridge…duh,.. well I just had to vent a bit and see if anyone has possibly run into something similar. I guess any specific questions would be
1. should this guitar just be re-toped?
2. If it is to be patched would you just cut a patch to fill the hole or would you feather out the edges of the hole to make a scarf type joint?
My first thought is to patch and then make a slightly bigger plate and bridge to cover all this stupidity. I guess my main concern is the belly. Honestly I’m too bugged to think it thru right now.
Many thanks in advance for any priceless experience.
Fritz

[Robbie Collins]

I am reminded of a philisophical question:

"The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same."

—Plutarch, Theseus

[Paul Verticchio]

It's the same....only different. 

That was no help at all, was it. ;)

[Ned Knepp]

Is a Stradivarius really a Stradivarius?

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

If I offended anyone it was not intentional.

My thought was that this guitar should go back to Martin. In my day (a while ago) that's where you sent really damaged stuff so you would not get bogged down. I recall their prices were reasonable though it took them a while to stop modernizing old guitars, I believe they are farming out as much work as possible to their authorized repair stations, but I've also seen them retop a brazilian 0028G into something more desirable.

A guitar retopped by Martin is still a Martin. I know I have an incredible grasp of the obvious.

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Josh.

I'll attempt to put the "how much is a D-28?" into perspective.

A new STANDARD D-28 (street) is $2400 just about everywhere. WOW, I hadn't checked that for a while!

A 1983 in EX+++ would go for about $1200-$1500 in my area's market.

The subject guitar as it stands is worth about $500 (likely less) depending on the structural integrity of the rest of the instrument.

Here's what we have to remember as the truth about modern (1970 and on) standard edition Martin's:

They are not 'golden age' instruments. They're far from them. The tops on 80's Martins have no magic fairy dust in them.

The are PLENTIFUL in both the new and used instrument market. Made by the tens of thousands each year as opposed to an annual production of a few dozen or hundreds prior to 1970.

A buyer pays 40% of the asking price JUST for the Martin logo on the headstock. There are LOTS of dreadnaughts in the under $1K range that can compete as a equal, especially sonically.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to re-evaluate the 'saving' of guitars which can be replaced with better instruments for the cost of the repair.  Although this case does not necessarily fit that model, I throw that in ONLY as something to think about as thousands of 'designed to be disposable' import and domestic instruments begin crossing our benches over the next few years.

Leave it to me to digress. Hope the $$$ info helps. :)

[Mark A. Kane]

Curiously enough, this is how Martin has been mounting bridges on many models (I'm not sure which, it could be most if not all) for the past 3-4 years, maybe longer. They cut a shallow pocket into the finished top and the bridge sits right down in it, the bottom surface of which resides about .015" or so below the top of the guitar. They call it a "pocket bridge". 

[Luke Single]

Hey guys,
I'm not sure how uniform or level the patch is but Dan E. goes over this exact repair in bridge repairs volume 2 on a gibson 45.
From the information provided I would probably remove the bridge pad and replace with a slightly enlarged one to help with the belly and support the top. Plug the string holes and carefully inlay a piece of book matched spruce with as little run out as possible. Route the inlay down as close as you can then chisel and scrape it flush.
After the top has had time to adjust to the new pad and repaired top, match the curve of the bridge to the top of the guitar, as long as the curve/belly isn't too drastic and what someone would consider average for the vintage of the instrument.
Between the pad and the new spruce inlay you should have enough force to straighten the top. Don't forget to check for loose or cracked braces, if the top has that much belly.
Then proceed with the neck reset that should have been done in the first place.
Just my two cents. What ever method you use Good luck! That's a toughie but not impossible you can do it!

[Fritz Froeschner]

Some interesting thoughts on the whole realm of when to fix and when to forget about it… Paul , your right about the “disposable” imports, we will all have to develop some guide lines as they begin to show up especially in the neck set department as most are epoxied. But on the other hand I had a customer pay me 500.00 one time to glue back together and neck set a junk guitar with a cowboy motif stenciled on the top because it belonged to his father and he just wanted to hear it again, he didn’t even play… of course that’s a special case for sure but still I’m reluctant to turn away a guitar if the owner really wants it fixed. Such is the case with this guitar, it belonged to the owners mother who bought it new, she has pasted away, ect. Anyway I’m looking at this as Luke has outlined .. a typical Martin re-build with the added fun of fitting a new bridge plate, patching the hole and re attaching the original bridge … the silver lining David was talking about... : ) a few more details about the guitar
1 it’s not playable in present condition, the high E string rattles like crazy on the saddle open or freted due to bridge rotation and no string break angle,
2 braces all seem to be tight
3 it’s a bit hard to tell if it will actually need a neck set due to the extreme rotation at the bridge. There is no doubt that after the top is flattened out the neck angle will be improved some…. but it will need a re-fret as these are very worn and pitted.
I’m not in Nashville or New York and unfortunately can’t get top dollar for my work so will probably come in under the cost of buying a used Martin in EX.. shape.. anyway the owner doesn’t want or need a different guitar he wants this guitar.
Luke, Thanks for the heads up on Dan E’s repair. May have to invest in another one of big D’s dvd’s.
Thanks to all
Fritz

[Fritz Froeschner]

please let me correct the last post

>>>no doubt that after the top is flattened out the neck angle

will be improved some /p>

 

actually the neck angle will probably be worse after the top is flattened out

thank you

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Fritz.

"anyway the owner doesn’t want or need a different guitar he wants this guitar."

Had you stated this in your initial post, our responses would have been much more focused. Of course, customer preference is paramount.

Best of luck with the repair :)

[Fritz Froeschner]

OK Paul,   please don't get me wrong , I'm immensely thankful for all the help and response.. and its all  plenty focused for me...  like I said before I consider it a great privilege to be able to participate in this forum.

Next week I will carefully pull the old bridge plate and see whats left of the top in the bridge pocket area.

thanks again to all

fritz

[Paul Verticchio]

Not a problem, Fritz. :)

Keep us posted on your progress...with photos?  This is one of the most interesting projects we've seen in quite some time.

Have a great week, buddy :)