Paint Analyzer?

[Robbie Collins]

I read the excellent Gord Miller (GM Vintage Restorations) interview on recreating authentic vintage finishes. He said he used a handheld paint color analyzer at a auto body shop to scan a Fender custom colors chart. The device then gave him a formula for mixing each color.

I suppose he could also scan a guitar directly for repair work.

I'm wondering if anyone has done the work and published the results or has used the device themselves.

Interview: http://www.300guitars.com/spotlight/spotlight-gord-miller-gm-vintag...

[Paul Verticchio]

No need. ReRanch has done the work for you: http://www.reranch.com/colors.htm

Thanks for posting this, Robbie. Although...it makes me wonder.... at what point do we become TOO anal about color matching? Just a thought. 

It's OK to be choosey about colors on $25K+ guitars ONLY to do an authentic restoration to increase value (the stock vs. restored value debate applies), but I'd think it impractical outside of a specialty shop such as GM Vintage. Plus, their work is only affordable to vintage brokers and fools.

Personally, I think their clients are a bit uptight and insane, but that's just me:) But then again, I'm the guy that considers a '59 Strat a "good $250 guitar".

[Peter Poyser]

Quote: "I'm wondering if anyone"

- Snipped for Shortness -

"has used the device themselves."

 

 

Within Industry, Portable, Paint Colour Spectrophotometers are what are normally used.

The best of these devices are very expensive indeed. I'm talking astronomical, real monopoly money.

You probably wouldn't find a price anywhere for the best of these Devices, but would have to request a Quote for the Model you Wanted.

We actually have a quite a few of them and they are used all the time to make sure colour matching is always spot on, and the Colour of all parts blend seamlessly with all Products.

Basically, the cheaper ones (which are still incredibly expensive) that can be bought, perform an accurate analysis of Colour, but do so only at 90 degrees to the Colour of the Product they are analyzing.

That is fine as far as it goes. However, the problem with that level of analysis is that Painted Colour Surfaces, can look entirely different and give a quite different readings, dependent upon the illumination and especially the angle at which you look at the surface of the Paint.

So the best devices of this Type, which are hugely more expensive than the Cheap Models, (which are still very expensive if they are good makes) actually look at the surface of the Paint from at least three different angles, and all at once. Its dependent upon how you align the Device,  Straight On, from Above and Below or Left and Right, etc. but it's so you get the most accurate analysis possible, and read from however and wherever the Painted Surface is looked  at.

I hope that explanation makes sense to you. But this method gives the most accurate method of measurement possible in a Handheld Portable Device.

They use Powerful Rechargeable Battery Packs and the information from them is downloaded to Computer for further very detailed analysis.

As Paul rightly says, completely over the top for general Guitar Paint Colour Matching, except in the most demanding of cases.

However, they are a part of daily life here, and really the best thing possible when everything has to be spot on.

 

P

[Robbie Collins]

Thanks, Peter & Paul, for your helpful comments. A guy came by with a very faded '61 seafoam green Strat upon which he poured acetone to "degrease" it. The top is ruined and the back is streaked.

He asked if I could refinish the body and match it to the back. I explained how color boards are used to create variations of tone and tint (and the recipes that go with them) and how after I created them we would meet to decide on a particular flavor.

He then asked if there was a way to match colors like Home Depot and, after an hour of online research, I had zilch - other than the comments by Gord Miller.

I once used the Reranch seafoam green but it is a little generic for this guitar. I would rather mix it myself and I think the color boards are the way to go, but I had to perform due diligence.

[Russell Vance]

I don't understand any of this - the Fender colours have been around for ages and were generally old nitro car finishes - so the start point for the color is a known quantity (and most probably what Reranch use as their mix formula).  I take it you are a nitro sprayer so this is not mysterious.

When we need a Fender nitro color we send a commercial paint tag to our chemist who mixes it.  If we need to go faded we (locally- ourselves)  put in some white pigment - if it need to darken or intensify a bit a drop of black, need to go creme a touch of dirty yellow pigment (not yellow dye)  - that sort of thing - it's not rocket science - spray some of what you have done onto a similar substrate/undercoat to test , let it dry, squint/blur your eyes when matching sample against the existing finish and you are  there. Seafoam green is dead easy.

Also in this case you are (maybe) finishing to a 90 degree corner/large radius so the two colors are on a radius /edge and can be blended in at that juncture to conceal any minor inaccuracies.

The old paint guys didn't have anything and they got by fine with eyball Duco matching and nitro fades to a standard fade anyway - you are not painting a Lamborghini or even a standard car schedule where you have to be spot on from panel to panel and have large surfaces to contend with.  And, further more, if you are going to be relic-ing the new finish to match the back you may as well shoot a normalizing shader over the whole guitar after the repair coats and relic the lot to even out the finish.   It's a large respray so the "vintage value" is shot anyway (not that that matters too much to a lot of us - it's not a coffee table - it's a tool of trade).

The only guys who say this is rocket science are the guys selling repair jobs for rockets.

Rusty.

[Robbie Collins]

Yes, I spray nitro and I've had good success eyeballing colors, adding black or white, etc.

My conversation with this worried client started with "sure, I can do that" to "if you want to be involved in the process, I'll make color boards" to "I'll get back to you on that idea." This guy is just trying to gauge the probability that the final result will meet his expectations and he's exploring ways to insure the outcome.

I could have said to him that heroic efforts weren't needed but I didn't want to minimize his concerns. Instead, I gave him detailed info to help him make a decision and, thanks to this thread's participants, an answer to his color matching question. If he wants more assurances I'll refer him.

[Peter Poyser]

Quote:"The only guys who say this is rocket science are the guys selling repair jobs for rockets."

 

 

 

Actually, a whole number of my boys have just gone to work for Elon Musk (pictured above at Oxford) at Space X, who supply the Rockets for NASA.

http://www.spacex.com/

I was just talking yesterday to another, that it is possible might also be joining him. I have tremendous respect for Elon. You all may know him better as the Brains behind Pay Pal, Tesla Electric Cars, and Space X Rockets that NASA uses.

A bunch of my lads had Dinner with Elon at an Oxford College following this meeting at the famous Sheldonian Theatre where Elon gave a talk a little while back.

If you watch it all the way through you will learn an awful lot from one of the cleverest guys around.

The introduction is from the Vice Chanchellor of Oxford University.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZh-p1ZE4FY

 

 

 

Yes, absolutely, there is no argument here, I think we are all entirely in general agreement that for the average Luthier.

The cost of a Colour Spectophotometer, and the Level of Accuracy that is likely to be required to be satisfactory, puts it far beyond common sense as a Workshop Tool.

As you rightly point out any Factory, that Manufacturers Products which require building and painting many different sections and parts, many of which will additionally come from third party suppliers, will need a device like this to ensure that when everything goes together, all the different parts, made and Finished in entirely different places,  all match up perfectly.

Hopefully, we routinely do a rather better job that Lamborghini could ;)

(One of our boys went on to become Head of Ferrari Design) :)

 

 

 

However, it says a lot for the high quality of Franks Fora.

That any member can ask seemingly obscure questions of this sort and get Professional & Qualified Answers from people Fully Acquainted and Experienced with the Top Equipment .

And frankly, although it does seem to be far beyond what is ever needed for a good job, I am rather impressed that certain Luthiers are interested in the Topic, and going the extra mile to do the mist Reliably Accurate job they possibly can for their Clients.

Where a Rare Precious or Prized Vintage Instrument is involved, or simply where a Client is Neurotically Uber Fussy, or the Luthier specifically specialises in Accurate Vintage Finishes, the many hats I wear are all off in salute to everyone who wants to offer the Finest and Best Service they can.

 

 

In Industry the job of a Paint Colouriser, that makes up Huge Batches of Paint in Massive Quantities for Large Vats is highly specialised and these guys are incredibly well qualified.

Sensitive to Colour Differences most excellent eyed people wouldn't even register on their Radar. Although they give Formulas that everyone else follows under normal circumstances. These people can take a whole bunch of different Colours and arrive at precisely the Colour they want, but build that Colour up from any of a wide number of different directions.

Sometimes you can see this, say if you Spray Paint a Blue Finish, but as you begine to apply the first layers it looks green to start with. Its just the way the Paint Colouriser has designed that batch of Paint. As you apply more Paint it suddenly comes into its Proper Area of the Colour Spectrum.

If you ever encounter a "Nightfire" Metallic Finish, and shine a light on it in the dark. Suddenly out of that vivid Red Finish you will see blue, yellow and green hues just like you would in a real, genuine "NightFire". It's an incredible thing to be able to make a Colour perform like that, with such an amazing subtlety.

Once again, ones "hat is off"!

 

 

P

[Robbie Collins]

Thanks for your kind words, Peter. It seems like I am forever in search of the state-of-the-art, but I figure that if I aim high I may miss my target but, at least, I will advance incrementally by being better informed.

[Peter Poyser]

Robbie.

Here are some links you may find interesting.

We all agree this type of equipment is far beyond what any Luthier will need.

So its just to give an idea of what can be used, and the degree of accuracy that can be demanded and achieved.

To use this type of equipment properly, you need some specialised training, and we have specific technical people that use these devices, amongst other tasks they perform.

Having Chemical Specialists, and Large Technical Backup Team and up to Six Paint Reps on site most the time, and at least two present each and every day from Three or Four of the  Largest Paint Companies, is Standard Operating Procedure.

 

Xrite is the Industry Standard.

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/L10-328_Color-Eye_7000...

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/L10-372_MA98_en.pdf

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/L10-155_SP64_en.pdf

 

But there are other cheaper Products 

http://www.konicaminolta.eu/en/measuring-instruments/products/colou...

http://sensing.konicaminolta.asia/products/cm-2600d-spectrophotometer/

 

 

Just to reaffirm the fact.

For Luthiers, and in general, Paul and Rusty's earlier points, are very helpfully made.

It's just that the particular question asked about is a particular  area of preoccupation for myself and many of my closest colleagues. So I hope the replies have been of some interest.

 

 

 

Recently, Channel 4 TV Broadcast a Documentary entitled "Inside Rolls Royce" that amongst other things focussed upon the Design and Manufacture of a Model called "The Celestial."

If you get the chance to see this programme, I think it's worth seeing.  In it, a friend of mine their Top Paint Expert shows you a Car Shaped Sample of Colour in Gold, the Paint actually contains Real Gold to give that quality of Colour.

The Celestials interior is designed after the Night Sky when the Factories first Product was Manufactured.

It has 446 Diamonds set precisely in the Doors Wood Panels.

http://www.rolls-roycemotorcars.com/library/film/60-pairs-of-hands/

 

 

Here's my old friend Peter, the Head of their Paint Dept, explaining how they are Painted with an overview of the whole process, further on in this comprehensive National Geographical Documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMHiAd0eRsg

 

 

Here's some Client Colour Matching demands for you to think about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO-F942suxE

 

 

Many Years ago I helped produce a Product for Queen Elizabeth II.

It was Painted "Queens Green" which is a Unique Colour, reserved only ever for the Queen of England.

It's a very Dark Green indeed, and best described as a Green with a touch of Black in it, and looks Extremely Distinguished.

 

 

Best Wishes

 

P

[Russell Vance]

Hello Peter,

I may have been a little vague when I said "I don't understand any of this" -  what I said was I don't understand why we are taking time addressing and exploring an issue that isn't a problem, and within the bounds of what guitar makers, luthiers and repairers/restorers need to know has little relevance or application.

I say this from a base of being trained in advanced acoustic spectrum analysis at The Joint Admiralty Marine Establishment @ Bushy Park Teddington - a place you and your fellows would have been aware of in its heyday and also having my main professional qualification of  Spectrum analysis (VLF acoustic and  ELF through Far IR)  to beyond and using the gear that's responsible for making sense of it.

This captures desktop systems which match paint.

This is not to beat ones own drum, but rather to put my comment into perspective - I would hate to think that I was being viewed as an Antipodean Luddite.    Rather I was being brief in my pursuit of relevance.   But they were cool links anyway and as always, entertaining; thanks bloke.

Regards,

Rusty.

 

[Paul Verticchio]

Let me take a stab at summarizing:

Paint analysis equipment = Good stuff for EXTREMELY specialized projects but TOO EXPENSIVE for a shop whose clientele are 'local' or 'regional'.

The ACTUAL need for a local shop to acquire such equipment = Nonexistent other than for professional "snob appeal". It's akin to a Plek system if you already possess advanced fretwork, bridgework & nut work skills. Y'just don't need it. There are much better ways to spend $100K.

I'll therefore introduce the term "IMPRACTICAL" to the discussion. That's my expanded take on the subject. It's simply impractical.

How's that sound?

:)

 

[Peter Poyser]

Quote: "I don't understand why we are taking time addressing and exploring an issue that isn't a problem"

 

 

That's very simple.

A regularly contributing member asked a question about this. Replying to help him was a Professional Courtesy.

I understood he wanted to know the answer, after reading an article by a Luthier Specializing in Finishes that prompted the question, and further because he had a Client he felt he needed to talk to about this subject.

 

He did actually make all this clear. 

But its absolutely the reason why I began my post thus:

Quote: "We all agree this type of equipment is far beyond what any Luthier will need. So its just to give an idea of what can be used, and the degree of accuracy that can be demanded and achieved."

 

Quote: "I say this from a base of being trained in advanced acoustic spectrum analysis at The Joint Admiralty Marine Establishment @ Bushy Park Teddington"

 

 

Yes of course.

My Father worked directly for Johnny Walker RN.

The brilliant Naval Officer that devised the Tactics designed to overcome the German U Boats in WWII.

There's a Large Statue erected in honour of him in Liverpool Docks, he saved many lives and sunk more U Boats that anyone in History.

 

Johnny Walker R.N.

http://www.mikekemble.com/walker/walker.html

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Special-Events/Events-a...

 

 

People think that U Boats were designed to go underwater.

In fact the early U Boats were Surface Vessels that could submerge for short periods purely for Attack at Night.

The Development of Underwater Detection Techniques by both Acoustical Methods, Ship and Submarine born, Later Underwater Seabed Arrays, and Infra Red is all of great Interest.

My Father was also involved with the earliest wartime deployment of Sonar Detection Systems, and as well as the Atlantic Convoy protection was also involved in the deployment in the Gibraltar Straits, which was a great place to catch Subs.

The work at Teddington and Portland was very much in kelter and concomitant with the Famous Code Breaking work done at Bletchley Park not very far from here,  using the Colossus Computer developed to help break Germanys Enigma Code Machines.Teddington was where Barns Wallace developed and tested his ideas for the Bouncing Bomb!

My nephew (whose Solo Guitar Playing I posted some clips of Playing on a Charitable Recording a while back) is continuing in Studies of Acoustical Research at nearby Southampton University, and teaches Seamanship in his spare time. The Professor there specialises in Hydro-Acoustics. With his brother at the same University, they parked a Fast Yacht at the Club, study all week, and Sail the Solent at the weekend.

This is completely true - while back a couple friends of mine from Bavaria in Germany, whilst staying in this Country, went out to Portland Bill and simply wandered around, not aware of the "Secret" Nature of the Underwater Water Research that goes on in the Peninsula. They talk with very loud voice, which are verging on shouting, and later complained to me: "Ve kame to a Vire Fence and could not Xplore za Koast Line Furzer."  "Ve kept shouting at ze Guards along za Fence". "Let us in, Ve vant to Kom In, Let us in!" "But zey turned up viz Rifles and Machine Guns, and vould not let us go on, so ve had to Kom Home".

 

 

You couldn't make it up.

One of them was based in South Africa for quite a while.

And actually had a Flame Thrower Security System fitted to his Car, exactly like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDrzMGdYWZc

 

 

 

I'm really glad you brought all this up Rusty!

 

 

Quote: "This captures desktop systems which match paint."

 

 

Just the first link alone will go to the relevant Desktop System.

If you click the next link. then the Multi Angle Nature of the Hand Held Systems, and their flexibility and versatility becomes clear.

To be honest, as I explained, rather than using a Turnkey Desktop System that you mention, we link our Hand Held Systems and download their Data to Specialised Computers to do Further Analysis, and though I didn't mention it, that is backed up by Precision Microscopes and various other Methods of Examination.

 

 

 

Quote: "This is not to beat ones own drum, but rather to put my comment into perspective - I would hate to think that I was being viewed as an Antipodean Luddite."

 

 

If you have a Drum, as Michael Jackson sang, "Beat It".

But as I wrote my earlier post, it is entirely true to write, in my head I was thinking..

"My Hat is just as Equally Off to anyone that can Spray Paint stood Upside Down, let alone get it 'On Colour'".

 

 

 

Quote: "they were cool links anyway and as always, entertaining"

 

 

That's really great to know Rusty.

The world around us seems to have stopped knowing the importance of, and how to Entertain.

Dowdy Rock Performers have their faces down in their boots Singing, Comedians simply try to Shock us into a Laughing Reaction, by the extremes of their Swearing and Filth. Even Films just have obvious and unbelievable Computer Generated Special Effects, but with no Really Absorbing Plot.

I like the Well Written Old Black & White Movies with Great Actors, Characters and a Real Story Plot, much as like Al Schmidt and others of our ilk do.

 

Thank you for your Points!

 

 

 

Quote: "The ACTUAL need for a local shop to acquire such equipment = Nonexistent"

 

 

Yes.

There is no argument about that.

Everyone here, has always been in complete agreement, regarding that point.

I tried to make that very point clear myself, in a number of different ways, on every single post.

Quote: " As Paul rightly says, completely over the top for general Guitar Paint Colour Matching, except in the most demanding of cases."

Quote: " Yes, absolutely, there is no argument here, I think we are all entirely in general agreement that for the average Luthier. The cost of a Colour Spectophotometer, and the Level of Accuracy that is likely to be required to be satisfactory, puts it far beyond common sense as a Workshop Tool."

Quote: "We all agree this type of equipment is far beyond what any Luthier will need. So its just to give an idea of what can be used, and the degree of accuracy that can be demanded and achieved."

Quote: "For Luthiers, and in general, Paul and Rusty's earlier points, are very helpfully made."

 

 

Quote: "How's that sound?"

 

 

Hi Paul!

How are you? Very Well I trust?

Unfortunately,  the Equipment can only tell you how everything looks.

It will tell you the truth with an Accuracy beyond the Eyes Ability, and comes into its own and a necessity, whenever Multiple Parts from Various Sources are Involved.

Clearly, such accuracy is beyond your requirements. I'm not sure whether people can imagine the incredible costs that would accrue and be  involved in warrantee claims, were a Product to Manufactured where Different Parts of the Product were, or eventually turned, Different Colours.

It's not simply a matter of ensuring the Product is Manufactured from Different Parts and Different Sources, yet all Match up and Join Together Perfectly Visually, they have to be able to keep that Colour, right Across the Globe, in every Environment they will encounter from Desert to Iceland, and that has to be Proven Too, so there's a lot more to this.

In terms of the entirely reasonable question of what is Practicable, it's actually simply a matter of degree in Physical Output. How Many Times an Hour or Day the self same Operation has to be Performed to achieve a similar result? Utilising Technological Advancement to take the guess work and errors out of that, is no different to an Average Musician using a Snark Headstock Tuner.

 

 

I fully take your point.

And completely understand your meaning.

However, whereas a Single Luthier can Perform these Tasks as and when required.  Just as a Good Musician can get by without Tuning Aids.

In the Right Application and Circumstances. Advanced Technological Solutions completely come into their own, and are useful; and to some people, particularly Manufacturing Industry, Absolutely Necessary.

A friend of mine was Trained as a Piano Technician by Steinways. They used an Oscilloscope by Eye, to Train his Ear, to Achieve the Quality of Tuning Reliability, their Clients Expect, to be completely De Rigueur to the High Quality of the Product.

Personally, I haven't come across anyone myself, for whom using such Equipment is a matter of snobbery, even if they do have some very well heeled Clients. Peter at Rolls Royce is of the Christian Faith, and simply not like that at all as a Person, nor is anyone else I know that works there, and I know quite a lot of them.

It's simply, rather that in such a Role and in many Industries, that's the Standard Approach that is taken and used by everyone throughout that Field.

It's simply Standard Operating Procedure. 

 

 

 

Manufacturers.

Will use CNC Machines, Plek, Electro-Static Spray Finishing, UV Curing and all kinds of New Technologies.

They may not be in any respect Cost Effect, Practical or of any Great Use to the Average Luthier,  per say, but as I'm sure you will agree.

Many of these New Technologies bring with them, New Problems that many Normal Luthiers will at sometime probably be required to know how to fix, to put the Instruments Right. 

In that case. It's a Great Help for the Average Luthier to have some Depth of Perspicuous Insight into how Manufacturers are Making their Instruments Today, The New Technologies they are Using, and precisely why, things are at times, somewhat Going Awry.

 

 

The Greater Insight one has.

The Better Able one is to explain the problem Correctly and Authoritatively to ones Client.

And know the Right Answers to the Questions they ask, in a World that is Increasingly Widely Informed.

They tell us here that in the last year alone, more Data has been accrued, than in the Previous Five Hundred Years, that went before it.

 

 

Usain Bolt is always telling me. "Keep Up!"

Its good advice, if only for the point where a Luthier has to interact with a Manufacturer on Behalf of a Client.

It may be argued that I only need to know things on a need-to-know basis. But then it could also be argued that I need to know 'everything'.

How else can I judge whether or not I need to know it? So that means I need to know things even when I don't need to know them. I may need to know them not because I actually need to know them, but because I need to know, whether or not I need to know.

Even if I don't need to know about them, I still need to know, so that I know that I know there is no need to know.

 

This is the Best Way to Explain and Clarify this Point.

 

Best Wishes as always!

From a Gibson Fan.

To Another.

 

 

P

[Ned Knepp]

I have been reading this thread from the beginning and must comment on how derailed I think it's become. 

I believe that knowledge is it's own ends... I just don't think this is the place to publish a treatise on every possible thought the topic may bring to a persons mind. There is a lot of redundant and completely bizarre material posted in this thread,  a large part of which isn't at all applicable to the topic.

Submarine technology...   

Before you respond, Peter, I DO understand what you're posting and, evidently, know more about it than you realize, I just don't know why this is the place to bring up such a thing. I can trace back to find a tenuous connection but then it's possible to find a connection from any bit of information to any other bit if information if you want to look hard enough. That's the point, most of us don't want to look that hard. As far as I can see, this thread was about identifying and selecting a paint color for an electric guitar. I seems to me that the excess information presented here has blurred the topic to the point of uselessness. This isn't an encyclopedia, it a forum. The threads NEED to stay on topic and should be accessible to anyone. That' simply not true of this thread. 

 

It's not that I'm not interested in these things, it that I'm not HERE for these things. Frankly, Peter, it seems to me that you are here as much to "name drop" as to do anything else. It was established long ago that you move in different social circles than most, if not all, of us. Personally, I couldn't care less and I don't see much of anyone else here being too impressed. If that your point for being here, please note that it doesn't appear to be doing much for you. If it's not why you are here, you might consider turning down the innuendo and name dropping. I, for one, would be more attentive to your posts if you did.  I suppose that it's nice that you did some work for the Queen but I really don't care and it has nothing to do with why I'm here. What it does do is make me take you less seriously. I don't care and am not impressed that you talk to Usain Bolt and unless he has a hobby of building or restoring guitars, I'm wondering why he was even mentioned. Oh I understand the context of the quote, I just don't know why I needed to read it. 

I'm here because we discuss building and restoring  instruments. "We" being a group that appears, with rare exception, to be comprised of people working as individuals or in small shops. Industrial processes, while interesting, are superfluous and tend to blur the information asked for. I suppose it's great that RR puts large amounts of money into paint jobs on their cars but it really so distantly related to what we do that it doesn't matter. If I want to know how RR does it, I have access to other sources to learn more about that. Granted, you may know more about it than me but I'm simply not here for that sort of information. If I want to know about that, I'd frequent a different sort of forum.

Peter, you have knowledge that is welcome here but, please try to stay focused and  be considerate of your forum mates. The impression I have is that we're really not as uninformed or as uneducated as you appear to think we are. We really do know more than cutting small pieces of wood into smaller pieces of wood then gluing it all back together. We come from wide ranging backgrounds and we often appear to know more about the material you feel you need to education us about than you realize.  It's not accurate to think that we are ignorant of the topics you cover simply because we do not post the material before you do so. What we are is focused. We know why we are here and we try to stay within those bounds. It seems to me that you have a contribution to make here but it also seems to me that you may be more fulfilled with a personal blog rather than a forum presence.

Please think on what I've written. I won't pretend to speak for anyone but myself but I've observed thing here enough to feel that I'm not alone in this either.  Domination of a thread  through long, drifting off topic postings that appears to be somewhat self serving and, perhaps, a bit narcissistic isn't really the way to "win friends and influence people", at least not to me and not here.