truss rod position

[Micha Schellhaas]

Hi,

I'm back with a question, this time about the truss rod position.

It's for a set neck Les Paul style guitar.  I was wondering how much the adjustment nut has to be back in the channel. Also, does anybody know where to get the right tool to counterbore the area of the adjustment nut, since the nut is slightly wider than the channel?

[Micha Schellhaas]

Hesh,

just to be clear:

yes, I did research about every single thing before I asked it here.

I don't mean to offed anybodyYes, I do feel offended by Paul's initial comment.

This is where the first overstep has taken place...

I respect the forum and everybody that is serious about guitar playing or building.

No, I can't offer you help or advice with guitar building. But if you have a question about playing, I can probably help you. (you know how I like it - short simple question, short simple answers ;-)

really, we are talking about guitars here. We all choose to be in music, guitar making, art or whatever because we love it, and not for the money, or power or ego and anything else. There are enough other kinds of jobs for that. If we don't stick together, what's the point. I am not here to fight but to talk about guitars.

[Thomas James]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrrwNkuOeuM

[Micha Schellhaas]

thanks! I had seen that, I am not using the traditional rod though so I will have to bore a bit smaller...

I was also interested in the placement because the traditional rod pushes the little washer into the end of the cut, so that's where I assume the most force is applied. And that's behind the nut. In the Hot Rod the most force will be applied in the bronze colored metal piece, so I was not sure if this is something to consider, but apparently not...

[Andrew]

Traditional (compression) rods work on a fundamentally different principle than hot rods and other similar rods. Compression rods squeeze (more or less) the back of the neck against the pull of string tension, while the (modern?) type bend a neck against string tension. Basically accessiblity is your main concern. The adjustment end of the truss rod should sit at about the end of the fingerboard.

I dont wish to contribute to any of the previous 'noise', but I dont disagree with some previous posters. Where I went to school, my teacher (a hard man indeed) would often 'remind' us in broken English that you have to have ideas to do things. Well obviously that applies to everything, but especially building guitars. You've received some similarly hard advice. I've also been on the receiving end of some hard advice here. It can really, really burn sometimes. But I would suggest to you that if your first response is to be offended and reactionary, then perhaps you should take some time to evaluate why it is you joined this forum. There is a great deal of experience and beyond assembled here and humility would serve you well.

[Ned Knepp]

Micha,

  I'll try to keep this short. I simply want to point out that it's very common for someone new to building or repairing to underestimate the complexity of their questions. Many of the "short" or "simple" questions we've seen here over the years ( I've asked some too.) aren't so short or simple to answer for people with more experience. My personal experience has been that some "simple" mistakes don't matter very much and others can haunt me for the rest of the project. Personally, I'd usually rather have the long, complex answer.

I think that how simple or short a question is isn't determined by the question so much as by the complexity of the answer. Frankly, children learn how to ask questions very early on, it's giving a good answer that's usually hard. Simple questions very often require complex answers. You say you want short and simple but, if you think about it, I hope that you can see that this isn't such a good idea if it means that the short, simple response is leaving out important information. 

[Russell Vance]

Hi Micha

Only the originator and mediator of this forum can know for sure what the intentions and scope of this forum is and what is an acceptable position regarding this issue.  However, the reasons and justification my peers have made regarding what is appropriate and right for this forum ring very true to me and I find myself agreeing with their views and wisdom on this matter.

There is a very real risk that continued support at the ab initio level will encourage a further influx of well intentioned souls who will turn this forum into a free and comprehensive one-stop website dealing with "How to build a guitar".   

News of this site and the collective expertise found within the competent amatuers, semi-pro and pro contibutors and members has  tended to spread lately and the influx of untrained or unskilled individuals with little basic working or trade knowledge is most apparent to me.    Many members have done their best to deal with the new guys and their demands and queries and have done so in an unflinching and polite way but it is now, most certainly,  time to examine what's an appropriate level to operate on..

The point made was that a line must be drawn at a certain knowledge or capability cut-off point - a lot of the responders to your queries and others similar queries and predicaments are profession luthiers/repairmen who get paid by the hour.   A lot of the information provided is hard won and represents the factual/outcome driven side of the business - not some kids best "thought bubble" on the subject.  To provide this information costs - a lot.  

Guitar building courses are readily available to get students and aspiring luthiers onto the first rung of the ladder and earn them some standing in the business.  Better the course or apprenticeship  is funded by the student rather than us.   The student only has to learn things once and spend the money and time once.

Once that point is reached we are better positioned to handle the day to day problems that arise and more compelled to help.

On the other hand, if we let things continue here as they are going we will continue to use our time fielding  the same "101" questions and providing the same basic information until we loose our enthusiasm for helping, or simply stop answering.

A line was drawn here because it had to be drawn by dint of the stress being experienced by the regular senior contributors.    Should the mediator wish to define what constitutes a fair gambit it would help but in the mean time I think some very kind and helpful souls are saying enough.

Respectfully yours.

Rusty.

[Peter Poyser]

- Snipped For Shortness -

Quote: "I simply want to point out that it's very common for someone new to building or repairing to underestimate the complexity of their questions. Many of the "short" or "simple" questions we've seen here over the years ( I've asked some too.) aren't so short or simple to answer for people with more experience. My personal experience has been that some "simple" mistakes don't matter very much and others can haunt me for the rest of the project. Personally, I'd usually rather have the long, complex answer.

I think that how simple or short a question is isn't determined by the question so much as by the complexity of the answer. Frankly, children learn how to ask questions very early on, it's giving a good answer that's usually hard. Simple questions very often require complex answers. You say you want short and simple but, if you think about it, I hope that you can see that this isn't such a good idea if it means that the short, simple response is leaving out important information."

 

 

 

A Sensationally Brilliant Post.

Perhaps the Finest I have Ever Read.

I Heartily Congratulate Your Wonderful  Thoughts!

 

 

 

Bringing.

The Discussion Back On Topic.

Focussing on the Subject Matter of the Actual Thread.

Have you competently and comprehensively considered using a Gibson Truss Rod?

After all, an employee of Gibson invented the concept, why not properly respect that Heritage?

On a practical level, at my Studio out in the Countryside, I have a great many Vintage Les Paul Guitars indeed.

Virtually all of them had their Truss Rods adjusted perfectly to my taste, within a couple of weeks of the Original Purchase.

Today, Very Many Decades later, they all remain Perfectly Set, as they originally were, all those years ago. The Gibson Truss Rod served well.

I have certain beliefs and methods regarding how Guitars should be cared for, and have always kept all these Type of Instruments, according to those Principals.

And write with complete respect, that I fail to see the Logic of Reinventing the Wheel, and changing the Fundamentals of the Design, if it's a Gibson Les Paul Clone, that you intend Fabricating.

The Vast Majority of Player's seem to value a Slimmer Neck Profile on this Model, (I have some with Slimmer Necks and some with Fatter Necks as I like both for different Playing Styles) and many would feel a Deeper Two Way Truss Rod, would appear to directly conflict with what they would see as the Ideal Parameters, of a Basic Concept of the Design.

It demands a Fatter Neck Profile, which may not at all be what you want to Finish Up With. Furthermore, there are many unassailable arguments that could be put forward as to why the Two Way Truss Rod is not the Panacea that is at first appears to be. What appears to be Progress, is not always the utterly desirable advancement and improvement that it often times Masquerades to be.

In Addition its worth considering that, to be honest, today, certain Manufacturers make quite narrow CNC cut pockets for their Truss Rod Adjustment. Personally I think it's far better to follow Gibson's Traditional, Substantially More Roomy Accommodation which can easily be achieved in many different ways, for this component and adjustment, it works well, I think it's easier later on to work with and so once again, why and what is the need to Reinvent the Wheel on a Lasting, Proven, Design of Iconic Status?

 

 

All my thoughts and statements above are written with no underlying personal criticism towards you Mika.

They are simply, what I Personally think about the questions you've asked, and what you seem intent upon doing.

 

 

It's clear that you are convinced that your New Guitar Build is really Excellently Planned.

But in view of some of the many doubts above being Broadly Expressed, by myself and others, may I propose that you Reconsider, and after that Careful Further Consideration.

You come to Fully Appreciate that the Considered View Here was that, while it was Considered that the Original Proposals as First Originally Outlined, met with Very Broad Approval in Principle.

That as the Details of the Guitar Design Build Emerged, some of the Basic Principles were Sufficiently Fundamental in Principle and some of the Considerations so Complex and Finely Balanced in Practice.

That in Principle it was Proposed that the Sensible and Prudent Practice would be to Resubmit the Original Proposals for more Detailed Further Consideration. Laying Stress on the Essential Continuity of any and all New Proposals with Existing Principles, the Principle of the Capital Principal Arguments which such a Proposal Proposes and Propounds for Further Consideration and Approval. In Principle.

If you think this through carefully. You will no doubt Appreciate the Complete Sense of This!

 

 

Mika.

Looking at your interesting website, I note that you appear to be a Fan of Carol Kaye.

When I studied Musical Arranging, Carol (with whom I still have correspondence today), was the person I turned to in order to learn Bass Playing.

I have a Pal interested in Recording, that works at Universal Studios in the Mastering Dept, that played with Carol in a regular outfit for many years after she gave up Session Work.

Because of Hand and Wrist Problems, Carol (who never does anything by halves) was forced to give up Session Work for quite a while, and thus moved into Teaching and Musical Education.

I have this Conductor/Producer approach, where I like to be able to understand and relate very closely indeed with Musicians, quite regardless of whatever Instrument they might Play, with Considerable Authority.

Where the Musicians  recognise and know I deeply understand them, their Instrument, how it is Played, and how to get the Best Sound on a Recording, and can discuss what I want very clearly with them, in a way that unequivocally commands respect.

So I learn all I can from the best, most accomplished people about each and every Instrument. Two days ago, I bought a New Bass Guitar, for my Birthday to add to my Professional Collection of Basses. That is the thinking about all that, and I like to work out Bass Parts on the Instrument when I can.

Many of Carol's Great Bass Lines, Spontaneously Composed by her on the Session.

Have become Classic Hallmarks of many Hit Recordings.

 

 

Do not misinterpret this below, as any form of criticism, it is not.

I have to tell you though, that like me, Carol, the Educationalist, would never Teach Modal Scales.

And that of course, completely separates us both from the Great Majority Today who teach and of course think in Modes all the time.

Many, many, Decades ago, Players and Teachers alike, simply didn't Think or Teach that way at all, or Appreciate Music in that Manner.

When she improvises, any Music Genre really, but especially, Carol would always think Chord-ally at a Basic Level, and Compositionally beyond that.

Interpretively making up Ear Catching Fills on the Spot that lay easily upon the Listener, you would think that only the Song Composer could ever have possibly invented them.

In fact, in most instances with a few notable exceptions, they would always leave this to Carole who could do the job far better than they could. I worked with a Professional Bass Player many years ago who told me, "in every Great Musician there is a Budding Composer wanting to Come Out."

I think that describes Carol pretty well. Although sometimes she could be extremely difficult on a Personal Level. She has gone through some pretty rough things in her Life, and that can sometimes make you "Stronger" than you really ever should have to be. She's had some difficult times with Tremendously great Personal Sadness.

I have known a few Session Musicians in my time, that at times Know Better than the Composer what is Needed, and some that think they do and have learnt how to deal with them. I find that you need to keep Proper Control of the Players Bridle, but at the same time deliberately give them their Head, and say "Here is the Written Part. If you can Creatively Improve Upon what I have Written, no one will be more delighted than I, Go for it."

Some Players are like Race Horses, you need to Keep Control, whilst simply letting them do what they are Born to Do, and if you are working with the Best Session Players in the World.

They will always give you exactly what you really need.

A Hit Sound and Feel for the Record.

 

 

 

I also noted you had been to Sunset Sound.

And seem to remember they had a Neve 8088 Desk at one time.

And a Clever Versatile Floating Outboard Equipment Array ready for use in any Room.

You will of course be aware of the many Famous Artists, Groups and Records that have been Recorded There.

But I'm wondering whether you are aware that the Recording Studio has for me a far more Interesting History and Heritage.

Because its where Wonderful Walt Disney decided to base his Audio Recording Studio, and perform the Sound  Work on the many Landmark Blockbusting Cartoon Films, he made.

Big Band Musical Arranger Tutti Camarata, was hired by Walt Disney as a Director of Recording.  Legend has it that Disney replied "I'd rather be a client!” when Camarata proposed building a Recording Studio for Disney's Company, so Camarata had a lot personally invested there, and was encouraged into Entrepreneurship with a Virtual Guarantee of Lots of Film Studio Work.

A Very Seventies Room Sound, people usually just know about the Big Rock Stars, but forget about the Biggest Star of them all.

Then there's an awful lot about Hollywood, that's extremely.

Mickey Mouse!

 

 

I very much enjoyed.

Looking at your Website Micha.

So Good Luck with your Musical Projects.

http://www.michamusic.com/wings-of-fire/

 

 

P

[Micha Schellhaas]

Thanks Peter, I thought about the size of the Hot Rod in the beginning and since I like thicker neck profiles that should be ok. I was a little careful with the traditional one, because I was unsure if you have to curve the truss rod channel and the Hot Rod does not call for that.

Carol is great, right? I also don't think in modal scales a lot, more in chord tones and upper structure. The pentatonic scale is no modal scale though and has been used and taught for centuries... it fits good to blues as well!

And yes I agree with the short and the long answers. Details can not be neglected. Still, in theroy, it's possible to answer short and bring the person with the question on the right track, and to realize the complexity and to research more... I'm sure if you studied with Carol that's wat she would do? curious...

[Micha Schellhaas]

@Rusty yes I agree, this forum should maybe be called "experts discussions about rare guitar shop adventures" :-) just kidding, that's indeed up to the moderator.

Anyhow, for me personally and very much so in this project, the steps or questions I have been asking about might be simple, maybe really beginner-uber-simle, but if you are brand new to building a guitar (not new to how it has to be when finished) every step is just as new be it simple or complicated. And help to one simple steps everytime unlocked further steps in my mind on how to complete the whole project, and how to deal with other problems along the way, even if they don't have anything to do with the initial question if you get what I mean..

[Hesh Breakstone]

Excellent posts Andrew, Ned, Rusty, and Peter.  Since Peter brought it up ;) here is a possible finishing scheme for this Les Paul:

@Peter - Your posts are a joy to read and always packed with value and very interesting things.  Thanks, Peter, for your thoughts!  Also do you know John Thomas author of Gals Of Gibson?

@Micha - I appreciate your reply, except one statement.... and I appreciated that you were looking for some way to be of value to us such as advice about playing.

But it also got me thinking, always a dangerous thing here.... ;) that you seem to think that we may be looking for quid pro quo or something in return for assisting you.  Now some would be insulted by this, some would chalk it up to being a thoughtful jester but this guy still lacks a clue (no insult intended, I speak like this....), and still others would read a whole lot more into this but I won't go there.

FRETS.net is not about quid pro quo by any means.  No one here is asking for or even in my view wanting to be compensated in anyway for anything by anyone.  We help everyone as much as we can because we love Lutherie, wish to advance the craft, enjoy interacting with each other (this is a great forum!), and perhaps one of the reasons that I try to help as well is that I learn better by attempting to convey knowledge to others.  The more that I explain a concept the more it becomes ingrained in my mind.  So in my case when I help you I benefit by having the opportunity to have my notions a) understood by others or not (It helps me learn to communicate if I am successful in getting a point across), b) subject to vetting by others including mods that could make what I do better next time thanks to the collective wisdom of others here, and c) When I write about a process it tends to solidify my own knowledge about said process.

So thanks for the offer, I'm such a lousy player anyway there is no hope on that front but the real point that I am making is that if you believe that we want some kind of payment, something in return from you, quid pro quo you are still missing the point about why we are here.

At the most basic level we share because we wish to and desire nothing in return EXCEPT the belief that we are sincerely helping others and that the others that we help are worthy in the sense of personal commitment to learn on their own as well.  The homework so-to-speak.

And this brings the thread full circle at least for me since we are back to the notion of sweat equity on the part of the folks asking questions.  

More specifically we don't want guitar lessons or any form of payment we simply want to hope that those who we do help are also willing to help themselves as well.  And that's the beef and the goal.

I haven't written you off, yet ;) since I am still here in this thread and my hope is that I don't have to.  Your remaining comment about Paul being the first over step needs to be retracted or I will write you off.  It should not be about how you perceive that someone was mean to you when instead your focus should be on these guys share pretty freely, wish nothing in return, so maybe it's time for me to do my part to keep the peace.

Balls in your court.

[Micha Schellhaas]

Hesh,

I'm not looking for quit pro quo, I was referring to Paul's statement that you gusy should bill me for your advice given here, and to the general attitude I was describing of experienced musicians that gladly teach and share knowledge freely.

You can get some free guitar lessons and info on my website, this is not the place, this forum is about building, right.

Paul initial answer was irritating, not offending. After all, his second sentence is stating that I should pay him and other people for advice given here. Furher he assumed that I want to make money off you gus by getting free advice and then use them for a commercial venture. I ask myself, is it this easy to actually pull a profit by selling guitars? It's a little bit like teaching a bass player the notes c, f and g and he will be too busy with gigs to show up to the second lesson, haha. We all know that neither bass playing nor guitar building is that easy, and that someone who just learned how to install a specific truss rod, is a long ways from actually making money with guitar building...

When I wrote about that I think that Pauls answer was snappy and grumpy, well apperantly my german humor doesn't catch here but again - from my position I am asking questions on a public forum I have been approved for. I do not know who is the best member in the forum here and who contributes most or who has the most knowledge. But besides fom the subject matter of buidling and repairig guitars, Paul did question my behaviour and my ethics, since the attitude he believes I have towards guitar building sullys the craft in his opinion... well that's a pretty personal and opinionated answer to a guitar building question by a forum member, don't you think? And again, subject matter aside, I think it's ok to stand up for one's personal integrity when accused like that...

[Paul Verticchio]

Micha Mouse (btw, my friends name is HESH not Hash),

I've restrained myself while you continue to take personal pot shots at me. You blew it.

Muhammad Ali had a move where he allowed his adversary to keep wasting his time and energy to the point where they had no escape from the hell-fire and fury which was to befall them. It was called the Rope-a-Dope. You, through your unrelenting personal insults, have painted yourself into the corner just like Ali's opponents. It's time for a good Rope-a-Dope response. Here goes. [Your comments are in quotes]:

"yes, I did research about every single thing before I asked it here."

Evidently NOT as 2 posters gave you 2 different YouTube links that would have answered your question.

“Yes, I do feel offended by Paul's initial comment” and then later "Paul initial answer was irritating, not offending.".

First you said you were 'offended' an now it's 'irritating'. Make up your mind. Your inconsistency is world class.

"I think it's ok to stand up for one's personal integrity when accused like that..."

To be able to stand up for your integrity, you must first HAVE integrity. You, IN MY EYES, you're light years (that's how far light travels in one Earth calendar year...the kind of short explanation that you want, eh?) away from establishing any type of integrity

"I was also interested in the placement because the traditional rod pushes the little washer into the end of the cut, so that's where I assume the most force is applied. And that's behind the nut. In the Hot Rod the most force will be applied in the bronze colored metal piece, so I was not sure if this is something to consider, but apparently not..."

When you assume, you admit you have chosen not to be accurately educated or have not sufficiently researched the subject matter.  LOOK UP THE INFO. Also, "the bronze colored metal piece" in the professional world is called the adjusting socket or hex socket. Thingamajig and whatchamacallit are also amateur/hack terms.Pro's use correct nomenclature to eliminate misinterpretations and for economy of communication. Hacks don't.

“I thought that you guys would be willing to help out a person that is very interested in building guitars with half a minute of your time and a piece of information.”

IF you’re not drummed out of the business due to your attitude and actually gain enough experience to ANSWER questions instead of just asking them, you’ll feel like a fool for making such an ignorant statement.

“I think it's actually rather rude to call me "unethical" for asking a question”.

Got a dictionary? Look it up. It simply means something that’s not unlawful, but contrary to the way things are done using the “reasonable person” perspective or a perception of a conflict with GOOD business practices. It also, in the context I intended, it describes duplicitous, questionable, shady or dishonorable business practices.

“I know a thing or two about guitars since I look at them for hours daily.”

My belly laugh of the week. Thanks :) And I know a lot about how TV’s are made because I watch it for hours every day. My statement is equally invalid and inane. I admit, I found YOUR statement HILARIOUS. Don’t worry...I’m laughing at you, not with you.

“Paul initial answer was irritating, not offending. After all, his second sentence is stating that I should pay him and other people for advice given here.”

NO... I asked if we COULD bill you. Got your attention, right. That’s what it was meant to do: snap you into REALITY.

“Furher [sic] he assumed that I want to make money off you gus [sic] by getting free advice and then use them for a commercial venture.”

According to YOUR website, you opened a shop to build your guitars. Common logic dictates that businesses are started to sell a product. Your website absolutely alludes to this. Otherwise, you’re simply a bad businessperson who has enough money to open a business that serves ONLY you. Then again, in your case, that IS a possibility

BTW: learn the meaning and application of the word “prototype’. Those are what you build using B-grade wood (especially the 1st in a series) to work out the kinks that are biting you in the ass now. Just because you brag on your site about the quality of the woods you are using, your first 15-20 guitars will likely be problem ridden. That’s not an assessment of your skills. It’s how things are done in the manufacturing (building) business and a fact of life. Most successful builders have destroyed their initial builds as to not cause a possible distraction to the reputation they worked so hard and HUMBLY to establish.

AND, using figured or flame maple and old growth Mahogany doesn’t mean crap if construction quality isn't in league with expected and established HQ industry standards. It’s about QUALITY design and expert lutherie more than woods. Taylor proved that with their Pallet guitar and Martin proved it in the 50’s & 60’s with their paper mache’ sided and backed D-28 they made for and took to trade shows.

A true side story:

There’s a builder in St. Louis who is about as egotistical and clueless as you.  6 years ago, he did exactly what you are doing. His first 20 guitars were certifiable $2500 pieces of junk. But, being a megalomaniac, he offered them for sale.

The first time I saw one, I thought it was a mid-‘60’s sub Teisco quality import. I laughed out loud as I thought it was a parody of a guitar. It wasn't.

Fast forward 6 years. His guitars are now of marginally acceptable quality. He can’t sell a damned ONE because the word was out that he builds crap instruments. Why? Because so many have seen (or tried to flip/sell/UNLOAD) his first crap guitars.Your reputation is made on the quality of your first instruments.

Documenting your first build on your website is a poor practice, unless you want to impress no one except the plethora of "I'll believe anything I see on the web" 15 year old's with gun slinger mentalities.

The moral of the story is: It takes years to earn a trustworthy and respected reputation. It takes one marketing misstep to destroy it. It rarely can be regained.

And since you just can’t restrain yourself from taking jabs at some of the most distinguished and valuable members of this forum, look in the mirror because here’s what you’ll see:

A person indicative of his generation's army of narcissistic, schmoozing, pathetic slackers. You want everything handed to you with a bow on it. A generation who works harder at trying to find the easy way out of doing real or meaningful work to the point of conning others to do your work for you and taking unearned credit.

This is all to common in today's business world and I've had to terminate (in my past career which I retired from after 33 years of service) several employees for just such documented incidents (luckily only 4 of the 600 employes who's performance I was personally responsible for managing).

When corrected or challenged, you (oh ya, were back to being personal again) take no responsibility for your statements. Inversely, you contradict yourself and ATTEMPT (without success) to twist phrases to to your advantage. You claim to be a builder, but you’re NOT until you've built something. Don't be a poser/ braggart who has nothing to pose with or brag about. You are two faced to the point of being a transparent, untrustworthy, unappreciative unsuccessful manipulator.

In summary, my assessment of your skill level and attitude as a builder/tech/repairman is “UNQUALIFIED and NOT ready for prime time”. And quit playing the ‘poor, poor pitiful me’ card. You’re embarrassing yourself.

I give you the same choice as my friends: straighten up or you’ll risk becoming persona non grata to some of the most extrardinarily talented and experienced folks in the industry who’s help would benefit you beyond imagination.  IT’S YOUR CHOICE ALONE.

Strive for redemption as your likeability and compatibility with several forum members has been severely compromised and eroded, if not completely obliterated. It is all of your own making.

In fairness, I assess your playing ability as excellent. However, I’ve jovially mentioned several times that 'I love repairing guitars but there’s one MAJOR drawback: All my customers are musicians.” I base that tongue-in-cheek observation after 48 years of being a working professional guitarist/musician, guitar tech, producer, recording & SR engineer and consultant, in addition to my day job career. It’s guys EXACTLY like you that turn that statement form an ‘inside joke” to a sad truthful statement.

In closing, the folks you have received criticism from are former Business Executives and Trained & Certified Engineers and Specialists in varied and highly accountable PROFESSIONS. We’re not a bunch of burned out-easily intimidated old guitarists. Our dual careers as business/operational professionals and techs and luthiers span decades. I’m confident some of our professional ‘prior life’ careers far exceed your age.

To be successful in a business, you must adhere to GOOD, ESTABLISHED and EXPECTED business practices. If you run your business like you run your mouth, start looking for the nearest soup kitchen & homeless shelter. Whiny brats never make it. And it'll likely be "NO SOUP FOR YOU".

I hope I haven’t offended your German humor. You have certainly been an impetus for my ITALIAN ire.

Yippe Ki-yay.. you know the rest......

To all other forum members: Yes, I am being quite unprofessional in posting this heartfelt and honest rejoinder. I realize this and accept full accountability and responsibility for my statements and opinions. My statements are based upon the presented facts and are, alone, MY POV.

I believe I remained restrained up to and beyond an reasonable point.  But sometime you just have to call a dog a dog and it’s been a helluva Dog Show.