Vintage Gibson VS Brand New Gibson: You can not be a fan of both....

[Kerry Krishna]

 

 There are SOOOOO many dyed in the wool Gibson folks out there that think Vintage and New Gibsons are EXACTLY the same.

So I am putting this forward.

There is no shame in being a huge fan of the Vintage Gibson brand, and it does not take anything away from disliking all the Gibson factory has done in the last few decades. 

 After reading much of why the new Gibson's are ending up in repair shops their very first week of ownership, and Gibson's lack of a 'real world'  warantee, I have no idea why this is ever a real conversation anymore.

  I draw your attention to the story I heard about from these pages a 4 years back.

This one story made me loose 100% respect for the company.

   A Luthier who works for a guitar store Gibson dealership had a two week old LesPaul come into his shop. The 19 year old New owner had wanted one for 10 years, so bought a new one after coming up with $2600 (I think that was the # anyway).

The reason it came back into the shop was that the axe could be tuned up, but would go wildly out of tune whenever the neck was handled, then would go right back into tune when no longer touched. 

 The repair guy had a look at it, and saw that even though the guitar was only delivered a few weeks beforehand, there were quite a few lacquer cracks at the neck to body join. On closer inspection, and after putting a straightedge on the fingerboard, he saw that the neck WAS moving around whenever the neck was touched.  He started to hold the body and move the neck around to get a better idea of exactly what was going on.... And with a loud CRACK the entire neck snapped off the guitar!

 Upon examination, and measuring everything over the next hour, he figured out exactly what the problem was: The neck block was about a 64th of an inch too big on both the sides  AND the end of the fingerboard! The neck was only partially glued to the back of the tongue, and the black lacquer was mostly what was holding the neck in place. 

 He contacted the factory, and after explaining the problem several times, got to talk to a shop foreman. What he said was shocking. He said that he was well aware  of the problem, and that this particular phone call was about the 35th that he had received about it.

The problem had been with the necks, and was discovered by a line worker when she  went to glue up the first neck of that lot.

The worker showed that exact Foreman, and he had gone and measured all the necks that were in that lot. The number of miss-cut necks was around 125 guitars. They all needed significant shimming to be actually glued in, but the Foreman could not OK this process

He brought the problem to HIS boss, and the decision was made.

The boss said that since the necks were already to be glued, to do the glueing up process With No Shimming and ship them out.

The Foreman had no choice but to tell his workers to do what they were told. 

 The repair guy/luthier  was told to do the shimming repair,then do as much lacquer work was absolutely needed. Then the Foreman told him that Gibson would not honor the guarantee  on that guitar. 

 The kid got his guitar back, the store swallowed the repair cost and , in this case, the young'un ended up with a Better Than New LesPaul.

[Gerald Cummings]

A '"better than new Les Paul" sounds like an oxymoron to me...or a moron on too many oxys. You buy a Gibson Les Paul brand new, and you'd ASSUME it would be as good as new...no? WTF? lol

[RETROROD]

I have played and owned many Gibsons through-out my life. The only one that I ever bought new (still own) is a 2004 Les Paul Jr. If memory serves me, I paid $500 + free shipping thru MF. Unboxed it,tuned up,played maybe 5 minutes. Did a 2nd fret G string bend and the string popped from the shallow nut slot. No biggie. I promptly introduced the plastic nut to Mr nut file.

Shortly thereafter, I decided that this sweet-playing tone monster needed a bone nut. I made that in an afternoon and the tone improved noticeably. Not to mention I now had a custom setup to my liking.

I totally agree that Gibson could spend a few extra minutes on the nut and setup for the 'average joe' purchasers who cannot address some basic setup skills.

Be thankfull for some extra 'bread & butter' jobs guys!

[Marty Jubb]

Hi, I'm  a newbie here and a guitar repairman, in a way. Let me explain first then you can roast me. This is my first post, so I'm just framing my basis for an opinion on Gibsons, and to an extent, guitars in general.

I started taking lessons from a wonderful Luthier who has been a friend of mine since I was just a teen. This was about 2 years ago, and I spent 9  or ten months going to his shop every week. We went through basic stuff, to more advanced stuff. I bought tools and now am able to do most things I need to, some that I couldn't before. I have done work for others for pay, and can do a refret, or cut a nut or saddle, or reglue a bridge, or fix a crack. I already had the electronics thing down. I only used a luthier when something major needed done since I was a kid. I have played and worked on my own guitars since I started at around ten years old.  So, that having been said, here's my POV on Gibsons.

I'm old enough to have played what are considered vintage Gibsons when they weren't. In my early years, there were Gibsons and Fenders, then everything else. I had a Guild electric (S-300D) forever. I installed a Kahler in it when I was going through the 80's thing. I always wanted a Gibson, but that Guild was fine.

Now, I have had several Gibsons, but currently own only one, an ES-339 Pro Traditional sunburst. It has no F-holes, and the stock electronics are coil tapped Super 57s, with a boost pot. It has locking tuners which are a nice touch and great hardware, surprise. I bought it new, got a pretty good one. Yes, there are/were things that shouldn't have been there, like the still not completely cured lacquer when I took it out of the case the first time. I had to have Gibson send new pups because they were both microphonic. The replacements came and resolved the problem. They didn't ask for the old ones back. They work, but I knew they weren't right. I'm aware this type of guitar might lend itself to feedback, but the pups really needed replacing, amazing. The finish cured eventually and now I have a really nice guitar. To whomever wrote on this post that he hates Gibson ES-339's, I'm not sorry, I like it. But I knew how to set it up and take care of the issues. Besides, I knew how to get a deal price wise. It will always be worth more than an Epi, maybe not a whole lot better than a properly set up one, but it will hold it's value. I am not slamming the Epi, I bought one, but returned it when I saw the Gibson.

Now I look at the 2015 guitars, and think, there will be a lot of work for people to make these right. I would never buy one, unless it was really cheap, then I'd fix it. Gibson blows me away, they are the definitive example of corporate greed. I hope they go out of business over their new guitars and the stupid robo tuners, zero fret doo-dad and the price increase.

I look at guitars on their own merit now too. Anyone who thinks their $7000 Gibson signature is going to be perfect out of the box everytime is a fool. I suppose most are okay, but there's a difference between okay and $7k good.

I have a $600 Korean ESP/ LTD LP clone that kicks the crap out of every solid body I have ever played or owned. It shouldn't, but it does. It came with sperzel locking tuners, Tone Pros hardware and Seymour pups, not to mention a beautiful flamed maple top. It's as close to perfect as I need. I like underdogs anyways, but the big names don't mean a thing to me. I think most of us who have been around understand this. Anyway, thanks for letting me introduce myself and for reading my 2 cents.  Marty

[Russell Vance]

Welcome aboard Marty,

Most of the lifers here are pretty laid back and have seen way too much to get real excited about problems etc - but one thing which seems to bring out the angst here is when good Brands go bad.  This is especially the case with iconic brands that formed the basis of our soundscape and personal experiences.   The sense of disappointment, sometime bordering on anger that we feel from time to time is a result of seeing once proud, strong guitars now being popped out by the cheapest means for the most money.  

It's sad enough, and corporate owners don't seem to care, but other brands will step up and quality and value for money will prevail, especially under the watchful eye of places like FRETS.net.

Welcome aboard and stay frosty for the holidays,

Rusty.

 

[Andrew]

At 28 I can hardly be called a lifer, but what irks me about a brand like Gibson is the amount of good wood they take out of the market (sometimes with ethically or legally questionable trade practices, Ive heard) to build so many flawed instruments, a good portion of which supposedly dont even make it past the scrap pile.

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Marty.

I'm the guy that hates Gibson 339's (and all other Gibsons).

Let me state exactly 'why'. When my friend & customer bought his 339 for $2K+ 'used', he expected an instrument that could be set up, restrung and used a few days later as he is a working musician.

I'm happy your had time to cure properly, but working pro's don't have the luxury of waiting.  Although I closed my shop a few months ago, my remaining 'hand picked" customers are all working musicians, so down time is ALWAYS a factor. A neck re-fin was required and it took a month+ from start to finish giving the time for MY nitro to properly cure. It turned out GREAT.

Just last week, the same guitar was in for a bridge upgrade [to a Gotoh Nashville) because [once again] Gibson placed the bridge studs 1/8" too close to the nut. In fairness, Gibson has been consistently doing that since the use of the TOM bridge on solidbodies & Thinlines. What especially confused him is that my $400 Epi 339 (which weighs, plays and sounds exactly like his 339 in an A/B comparison) needed nothing major right out of the box.

Oh yes, my credentials: 49 years as a working pro guitarist and 45 years as a pro level guitar tech.  What time and experience has taught most of us old timers is to ignore the name on the headstock and evaluate the individual instrument. As far as resale, yes, the Gibby will be worth more in 10 years, but I don't factor in resale value when I acquire a personal instrument. That's akin to being on constant lookout for your next ex-wife ;)

To summarize: Our biggest gripe with Gibson is that they're charging $3K +for a $500 (tops) guitar.  Under their current management, I can't ever see a return to the quality company they once were.

And, like Rusty said... WELCOME to the forum & family :)

[Marty Jubb]

Hi to Rusty and Paul. Thanks for the welcome. I'm just happy to have a place to read about my passion and to ask questions. It just happened to be this post that I introduced myself in. I make no claim to be anything other than what I said I was. There's too much of that in this world. FYI, I am 53 and have played in various capacities since I was ten. I'm not one to toot my own horn, just sayin..

Paul, I totally understand your opinion. That situation with a player needing his axe is understandably frustrating. It could have been an LP, or a 335 too, so I said my peace about my 339, no animosity intended. Point is I was saying I agreed, mine had problems too! I am bummed Gibson is making shit and charging a fortune. I still like my guitar, but it's the guitar not the brand for me now.

I play out, sometimes professionally, but usually for fun and usually solo acoustic, and if I need an electric it's not often enough that it matters if one guitar is down, I have a dozen. Doh, I just made myself sound like the type of A$$ I dislike :-).  Nice to be welcome, thanks.

Marty

[Ned Knepp]

Hi Marty,

 

I have a dozen.

Do they have to be playable to count?   If they don't and you include other instruments to make me "like the type...I dislike"  I'm in a lot of trouble!

 Maybe I should start with;  Hi, I'm Ned and I have GAS.I had my first guitar when I was a teenager... Not really sure I would be consider as "recovering" at this point. I define GAS pain as the feeling I get when I "pass" one of my instruments on to someone else. 

Sometimes I think there are about 10 guitars for every player in the world. Some people only own one ( as in single. solitary, individual. not part of a set guitar...) which that leaves a lot of guitars that need SOMEBODY to own them. So on the really bad days, like when I get yet another derelict instrument that needs some care, I consider my "collection" as a sort of orphanage.

[Kerry Krishna]

Marty, It's great that you are here.I loved your post. Please post lots and let us get to know ya.

i

[Marty Jubb]

Hi Kerry,

I'm glad you liked my post. You never know how some people might take what you say, and since I'm new I don't want to blow my relationship with anyone if it's avoidable. Anyway Thanks.

To Ned, I have to say, I'm not sure a dozen is enough either. I was just talking about my working playable guitars, as I have some that I bought as learning instruments, cheap ones to learn how to fix various problems. Most of them were fixed and traded off or sold, but some are still here waiting for me. I'll always be the guy who sees an orphan who needs me and I can't help but buy it. Been that way long as I remember. I guess that's why I like underdogs.

I have so far to go in learning Lutherie, I will never get to where I'm comfortable and will pass on jobs that I am afraid to tackle. I did a neck reset on an old Yamaha Lawsuit Martin Clone, an FG-200 probably a mid 70's with my Lutherie instructor, and we were both amazed at how hard that neck fought to come off. He is an awfully good repairman and artist with wood, but that one flustered even him. I re radiused the neck, refretted it etc., he showed me how to spray and touchup the neck and body joint, and I would never have thought it possible, but it's an amazing playing and sounding beater guitar, as good as almost anything I've heard. Big, fat, aggressive bass, clear ringing and sweet tone.

Anyway, I got on here to look for something... :-)

[Robbie Collins]

I played an Epi 339 Pro at the big box store a few days ago used for $300. Nice guitar for the money.

[Kerry Krishna]

Marty, those yamaha necks are epoxied in....