Top-loading acoustic bridge opinions?

[John Cartwright]

Hi folks, 

I've got a 1960's Harmony Sovereign on the bench that is a new acquisition by a mutual friend of my cousin, who also owns one of these. They're great guitars with a nice "Stones" kinda' sound.  The top-loading bridges on these are really pretty cool and easy to deal with and the seem to preclude the mistakes many guitarists make in improperly seating the string ball against the bridge plate with a traditional design.  They appear to be a really smart design to me on the practical side of things, but I'm curious as to your opinions on these sorts of bridges in regard to tone, especially in comparison to the traditional style with bridge pins.  Has anyone ever used this sort of bridge design on a hand-made custom guitar?

Feel free to chime in, I'd like your thoughts on this.  Thanks! -John

[Hesh Breakstone]

"I don't need proof or data to convince myself....."

That's the problem....  I'll repeat to "adjust the saddle" or do intonation work the strings do not need to be removed with a pinless bridge.  Only loosened, it's done all of the time, Breedloves, Ov*tions, etc.

Do you want to tell Mike Doolin that in your highly subjective, snake oil and charlatan..... perspective that his guitars sound like "crap?"  Because if you do Roger why don't you take a break.... you don't have to be full of crap every day of your life now do you?

Lutherie suffers enough from subjective BS and snake oil without someone such as you lacking a clue spewing your BS in every..... single.... thread here.

[Roger Häggström]

Hesh, you are a live wire. I always read your post with interest, you know your thing. If I didn't know you I would be very upset by you dissing me like this. Let me remind you what the question was, I quote: "Feel free to chime in, I'd like your thoughts on this."

Well, I did just that. You know and I know that there IS no proof nor data for the statement "this thing sounds better than that thing". It's all subjective.

The subject is interesting though and the question valid. One thing I know for sure, the bridge is a major player when it comes to the sound and tone of a guitar. I also know there IS a difference in tone from the two different constructions we are talking about.

I guess everyone have to listen for themselves or conduct experiments like I have and choose one of them for their builds.

[steven gallagher]

Hesh,

Can you point out where Roger said this saddle style sounds like "crap"?

[Hesh Breakstone]

On the previous page he didn't use the word "crap" but did offer a completely subjective personal opinion indicating that pinned bridges in his opinion, not experience are not as pleasing to him.  Let's give George Lowden a call and let him know that he should recall hundreds of instruments and replace their bridges because Roger said so......

Well. I don't like them. My experience is that they don't sound as good as a pin bridge. And what Frank said in the first reply. I don't think the holes will weaken the top though, they are securely sandwiched between the bridge and the bridgeplate.

Well. I don't like them. My experience is that they don't sound as good as a pin bridge. And what Frank said in the first reply. I don't think the holes will weaken the top though, they are securely sandwiched between the bridge and the bridgeplate.

[Roger Häggström]

I also said "My experience is". Both bridges works and do the job. In my personal opinion the pin bridge is the better choice, not only for a "better sound" matching my taste but also for a couple of practical reasons.

I will add the "pin bridge" versus "string through bridge" to the list of highly flammable material alongside "hot hide glue" versus "TiteBond", "luthier" and "tonewood"!

[Hesh Breakstone]

You're missing the point as usual....

It's not these substances, methods, techniques or technologies that are argumentative.  It's your "toxic" predisposition to sling opinion with nothing to back it up in terms of empirical data AND you sling it often as fact.

When I state a position I try to also provide my rational for same as well as something that can be independently verifiable by others if they wish to.  I might cite a source, post a pic, reference another industry pro who is relevant to the discussion.

From tangless fret wire that you say sounds better................ to compensated nuts if it's what you like it's presented as fact by you.  This is not the scientific method and this kind of furthering personal opinion is what's found on player forums where one's endowment is determined by how many Les Pauls they have.....  Grow Up!

FRETS has not been like this for the ten years of so that I've been here and that was the attraction.  Industry pros, a smattering of hobbyists but seemingly most had some reverence for science, truth, data, and fact.

So Roger glue choices, pinned or not pinned bridges are not what's setting me off about you what is setting me off about you is you seem truly clueless to having a professional, elevated discussion unemotionally based on empirical data.  You're also in every thread even seemingly at times to say that you know nothing about the subject matter but there you are in all your glory.

My participation here has been VERY limited for over 6 months now because frankly you won't shut the hell up AND again are in every thread.  You also seem to know nothing about contemporary Lutherie including electric guitars but that never stops you from spewing your personal opinions about these things.

FRETs used to me my favorite forum but some of my friends have already stopped participating here, other pro Luthiers with decades of experience even specifically citing to me that you have lowered the professionalism here to the point where some don't want to associate themselves with the snake oil that you further.

Let me ask you a question please?  Have you ever considered that you may not know as much as you either wish to know or profess to know?  Has it occurred to you that your dominance of the dialogue may be preventing others in the know from furthering your own Lutherie education AND that of others here?  Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps you should consider listening as well as talking????  By the way these same standards are things that I have asked myself at times too.  It's called trying to be a decent human being.....

Lastly our professional shop puts over 1,100 instruments through it annually and these are all major repairs with simple set-ups being our lowest level of service.  We won't simply change strings or adjust truss rods.  We do heavy lifting, neck resets, refrets, complete whole nine yards restorations billed north of $1,200 commonly.  

We like many of my friends here are busy and when we do get off our feet and away from the bench our time is limited.  If time after time when we come here or anywhere for that matter all we see is you over and over and over again in every single thread and OFTEN completely wrong in your assertions we wonder why would we come here again....  

I'll add that pro Luthiers may also suffer from most of what's discussed is rarely new to us and that means that the value that we receive when participating on a forum tends to be a one way street.  One way with our experience and knowledge being offered and little that we are interested in coming back.

FRETS is inclusive and I both get that and admire and want to support this.  That's how it's been and that's been part of the attraction for me as well for years now.

Inclusivity also means that each and every one of us have a bit of a duty of sorts to not dominate the discussion to the degree where we threaten to take the forum down a notch... or more by encouraging the people in the know to not participate or folks wanting to know to have to weed though BS.  This is BS by the way and my last post here because I am sensitive to not peeing in the collective canteen..... for others....  Please consider the same?????

No Roger these topics are not "highly flammable" your penchant to be selfish and narcissistic caring not about why others may be coming here is in my view, my OPINION..... why I'm out the door and done trying to make contributions and learn something from here.

[Roger Häggström]

Hesh, you really don't like me. I wont give you a long and winding reply,

Yesterday I had a nice working day doing a neck reset, routing a binding channel and also preparing two identical fretboards for my barbless fret wire experiment. I'm on to my OldGuitar number 110, I guess I've done another 100 old guitar restorations while beeing a computer programmer before I made this my living.

Back home I got a mail with a nice and well thought of review from the customer who bought the OldGuitar 109, the Levin 1908 I posted here not long ago. He verified in his own words pretty much everything I've been saying about my concept. High volume from the plugs, great dynamics and no volume limit from the composite saddle bone, a nice soft cohesive sound as a result of, among other things, the spruce bridgeplate and also great intonation over the whole fretboard coming from the nut intonation.

I have about 20 old guitars in line right now (too many) and I still have to wait for the first disappointed customer.

Very off topic and all in a days work for this horrible, awful person.

[Glen H]

Roger, no problem.  I think most readers here are tolerant of others opinions.

[norm thiessen]

http://www.customacousticguitars.ca/guitars.html

I have been using this method of bridge placement for many years. I string it up, place the bridge exactly where it needs to be mark it and glue it on. They never lift , always stay in place(will not creep) and changing strings is too easy.

[Mark McLean]

OK Norm - that looks interesting! How are the strings attached underneath?

[norm thiessen]

with a slotted keyhole same as a violin.....but with a brass plate underneath.  

[norm thiessen]

i have found the volume and sustain dramatically increase as well the tone becomes deeper. I believe it is because the strings are attached directly to the top, with a sharp break angle over the saddle. the bridge itself weighs 30% less than a conventional one (pins or not). I have changed many standard guitars to this method with great success on all.