Refret question

[Kurt Gregory]

Hi. I have a Gibson J-45 that I did a refret job on some years ago. I got the advice of a local luthier who walked me through the procedure. I leveled the neck and then did a slight drop off starting around the 13th  or 14th. I did this just based on issues I had seen at the place where the neck is attached to the body. It turned out well the the guitar had great low action without buzz and served me well for some 20 years. Recently I decided to have it refretted again due to worn frets over the years but the neck was still good with no issues. I dropped off the guitar at the local guitar shop and mentioned the drop- off or fall off that I had done on the neck . When I got the guitar back the fret job looked great but I noticed the action was higher. I saw that he had leveled the neck including the drop off I had down  which changed the neck angle enough to make a noticeable difference in action. We took about a 1/16 off the saddle and had no more room to go there and still action not to where it was when I brought the guitar in. I was told that you always level a neck before a refret job and that they never heard of drop off or fall off of the neck that I had done and that it wasnt traditional. When I got home I looked it up and found that that it is something that is done. The shop owner defended his tech saying that it was a perfect fret job and I was trying to say yes but leveling out the intentional drop off changed the geometry and action. Am I wrong in thinking that neck drop-off  technique is not unknown and when doing a refret to consider that and do what is appropriate? At this point we are taking down the bridge and slot to adjust for the change  the neck leveling did. If that doesnt work I guess a neck reset or new fret board and starting over.

Thanks

[Jim Bancroft]

First off I generally never take the fretboard down, because I don't want to reduce the fretboard thickness, and to have a slight drop off of the fretboard extension is normal, especially after a neck reset.

Refretting to me is very basic. I may fill any wear divots in the fretboard and lightly sand with 220 grit, next clean up fret slots and install new frets. Thats about it. I don't like thinned fretboards.
Sounds like they did a lot of unnecessary work. At this point you may have to do a neck reset to get things back to where they should be, and I'd definitely not take the bridge down, that can cause more problems in the future.
Also check your nut slots, they may be too high for the new frets.

Personally I'd look somewhere else for future repairs.

Jim

[Kurt Gregory]

I didnt expect them to do the neck. we both looked at it before the work and the existing condition was good except for the fret wear. Didnt have any issues other than that.
Nut slot is fine ... could be a bit lower but I can do that.
I should tell them to hold off on taking the bridge down till I am sure that it wont lead to issues down the road.
It is not that the guitar is not playable, but no adjustment left and would like it a tad lower than it is.
Thanks for the reply. At least I feel I have a legitimate issue on what they did.
Kurt

[Kurt Gregory]

Thanks Paul
When I did my fret job 20 years ago I did the technique even though I didnt know it was a technique. I just did it because it made sense based on all the guitars that had issues at that place on the neck including mine. A friend of mine told me that Ovation used that technique also.

[Russell Vance]

Yep, the electric guitar world (especially the rising tongue Fender crowd) has been using drop off for years (most people don't know it exists but the top end after market guys program it in when cutting the neck). I do it with all my fret levels as a matter of course as it only requires around .010 or so from the 15th upwards.

Peculiarly, it's not used for the same specific purpose as the acoustic guitar requirement - rather it allows huge bending excursions up at the widdly widdly high fret numbers without the strings fretting out (once again a Fender 7.5 / 9.5 inch fret radius specialty) - the secondary purpose is the one you know - gets the rising tongue out of the way of the good action geometry. Be nice if we had some standards in this business - sorry to hear your problems.

[Russell Vance]

Nope, I said 'after market' guys who also do a lot of wholesale supply use this design feature. Fender doesn't appear to have got the message even after all these years. But as I said, if you wish to put some drop off into an electric you can usually accomplish this in the fret leveling process. Same goes for mild compounding of the frets.

[Kurt Gregory]

Yep, you are right on that. If they know of the technique it might have registered that the drop off was intentional and to leave it.
Anybody know a good Luthier in the Lacrosse or Madison or (Wisconsin) area? I dont feel comfortable with a neck reset by anyone.
Also, is there a minimum thickness for a bridge if that is an option? Jim mentioned not to do that. The bridge on this is a replacement that was made to replace the original and I think it is thicker than a stock so I wonder if that would be OK as an option if there is enough there to work with.

[Kurt Gregory]

Thanks everybody for chiming in and helping me out. I will get it to Gordy Bischoff. To see if a neck reset would be the next course of action.
Thanks,
Kurt

[nathan clark]

Was your drop off visible when the guitar was tuned up to pitch or was it planned fatigue?

[Kurt Gregory]

drop off is gone now. The neck was leveled and the drop off was taken out. That is what has caused the change since the leveling moved the neck toward the low point of the drop off...proabaly around a 1/32 and that new angle is where I lost my action. Taking about a 1/16 off the saddle put the action close to where I had it before the work began. Problem is I am at the limit off what I can do at the saddle especially at the lo E side. Almost no string break on the low e and still would like it a bit lower.

[Kurt Gregory]

The bridge height is (.275) on the bass side and (.2) on the treble side so might be easy to just take some off the top toward the bass side to allow a bit more string break there rather than remove and do the bottom. I didnt realize how much thicker it was on that side and probably accounts why less saddle is above the bridge at that point. I would check the slot depth relationship to top of of bridge at that to see if it confirms that it is the top of the bridge that is uneven and not the slot also. Got some pics if that helps.

[Kurt Gregory]

Yes I think this will be the easiest fix to get it back to where things were. The bridge also is sloped upward toward the pins so just leveling it would help lowering the pin to saddle relationship. Does thickness of bridge affect tone or are there any other side effects of less thickness? Like I said I will check the depth of the slot to make sure that is still good.

thanks

[Byron Merritt]

Hey man, I was trained to do the fall-off technique and use it on virtually every refret I do.
Byron