1930 Martin 0-18T tuners? And look alike identity.

[George Roberts]

I believe that the Martin tenor originally had the straight through Grover tuners.  Were they the ones with or without the ears?  This guitar had the holes plugged, and then re-drilled slightly off to the side, and the present machines added (all long before I came in contact with it.)  The current machines also tune backward.

The question that I have, is the guitar worth spending the time, effort and money on trying to find and install the appropriate tuners, or should I just leave well enough alone?  I do have an old set of 4 Grover tuners in the basement, with the ears directly opposite each other.  The only picture I could find online showed a tenor that had tuners without ears, and, I guess, held on by the bushing.  I think the tuner and bushing would hide the current modifications.

Also pictured is another tenor that I thought was a Martin when I first saw it.  However, it is ladder braced, has black binding rather than rosewood, and no name inside or out.  No numbers, either.  It still has its original straight through tuners, but with the ears offset.  Any ideas as to who made this?

Once again, many thanks for all the help and information.

George Roberts

[George Roberts]

Here are the pictures of the second tenor.

[Mark McLean]

You have sent me off on a bit of a Google hunt.  When Martin started making solid headstock guitars they adopted Grover planetary banjo tuners and kept using them on all guitars (six-strings and tenors) until 1932-33 when they introduced the classic open gear guitar tuners (Waverly and Grover made them for Martin at that time).  A nice bit of history that you have there. 

Mark

[Mark McLean]

Hi George

I am no expert but I am developing an interest in tenors and I am building one at the moment.  The first Martin tenor was made around 1927 and they had banjo-style tuners (pointing backwards, like the other guitar you show).  The Gibson tenors were initially like that also.  Sometime in the 1930s both manufacturers switched to using guitar-style tuners (a big new fashion statement!).  I have seen pictures of a number of Martin tenors dating from 1932 and some have banjo tuners, and some guitar tuners - so maybe that was the changeover year for Martin.  But it might have been at different times for different models, and subsequently some of the ones with old banjo tuners were also converted by their owners, so it is hard to tell now.  In any case, you don't see any from much later than 1937 with banjo tuners

Your one clearly had banjo tuners initially.  You can see that circle inpression on the back of the headstock.  Someone has "updated" it later and it looks like an owner DIY job because they have put them on upside-down and back-to-front.  This is why they tune backwards and why the knobs stick out in the wrong places.  The knobs should always be above the tuning gears, not below. 

You say that this is a Martin, but there is no headstock decal.  Are you sure from other markings that it is an authentic Martin?  If so, the decal might have been lost in a headstock repair.  I am also wondering if the headstock might have been reshaped a bit (seems a bit tapered??). 

Anyway - what should you do now?  Do the current tuners work well?  If so you could swap them around (treble side rotated to bass side) so that they are the right way up and tune in the conventional direction.  That might leave some exposed screw holes to plug and refinish.  But if the existing ones are not working well or won't swap over you could replace them with historically correct banjo-style tuners. 

cheers

Mark

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi George.

Mark gave you the skinny on the existing 'replacement' keys.  I also agree that the headstock appears to have been 're-engineered'.

Those Grover Banjo tuners were used on many banjos & guitars way back when.  They were also used on early 60's Gibson Firebird electric guitars and even the pre-SG style double cut '59 & '60 EB-0 electric bass guitar.

Here's a superb quality vintage style replacement: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Banjo_tuners/Waverly_Banjo_Tuner...

Here's another pricey choice:.http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BP34-NICKEL.htm

Something to consider is the 'destiny' of the Tenor.  If this is your personal instrument and you simply wish to play it for enjoyment, the current tuners will work.  A higher grade set would be advantageous and prudent.

Personally, I'd swap the tuners with on the non-Martin tenor and preform the attendant cosmetic/mechanical repair work to the Martin. Then I'd get 4 regular open gear guitar tuners for 'Tenor X'.

The Martin is in a physical condition that would make it only interesting, as a collectable, to a newbie collector or a Tenor hoarder.  It has utility value but little else.  The utility value of the Tenor assumes everything else is 'right' with the instrument.

IF the Tenor is being restored for sale: you'll need to hunt down a working set of true vintage tuners. The originals, especially with the 'ears' are rare as hen's teeth. However, based on the headstock, 'originality' can't be a selling point.

Hope this info was helpful & best of luck,

Paul (-:

[Mark Pollock]

I have a 1929 5-17T (hope I got the model number correct) (I've edited this three times, and I have no friggin' idea what it is, besides a Martin tenor from 1929) that I am reassembling right now. The attached pictures show what I have. Those are the original tuners, which really need a good cleaning and some new leather washers.

The beauty of these kinds of guitars is that, since they are nowhere CLOSE to the value of other Martin, slobs like myself can work on them without fear of loosing insane value. (When the back and braces are in pieces, and wrapped in newspaper, that is a sign that this will not be a pristine "closet classic" when finished.) It simply is not worth the expense to have an uber qualified luthier do the full restoration.

[Kerry Krishna]

 If you are looking to replace the machines with banjo style, I would go with the Waverlys. Stewmac sells '5 Star' Brand banjo tuners also, and I found out the hard way, that they get 'notchy' when used as guitar tuners. After I had installed the 5 Stars, I chatted with an American Martin collector guy who had over a dozen of the them that all had replacement banjo tuners. He told me that there had never been a single problem with any of the individual machine heads. That is one glowing review, and I wished afterwards that I had spent the extra 30 bucks and got the good ones.

 Mark, I have several sets of the 'two ear Grover banjo tuners' on my Kay Kraft Tenor guitars. They are quite poor quality machines and were recognized as such even back when they were originally made. They rock back and forth as they are tuned up and are certainly not at a 90' angle when under tension. The leather washers inside also apparently need replacing every 15 to 20 years. I would possibly think about getting a new set before stringing it up, and just plugging the holes.  

[Tim Mace]

I recently bought S/M 5 Stars for my ancient tenor bjo and am not satisfied as they self loosen...am I overlooking something that might make them hold as they should?They look great but that ain't my reason for wanting "good" tuners...shoulda got better ones also.

[Mark Pollock]

Has anybody ever retrofit better mechanisms inside those bodies? Just curious - I'm sure some Martin restoration wonk has tried this.

The rocking back and forth - are those just washers under the pegs?

I shall meditate upon these things.

[George Roberts]

Mark, thanks for your comments and research.  Yes, it truly is a Martin, serial # 42034, and the imprint is present on the back of the peghead, but difficult to see in the picture.  The Martin logo is also present in the usual spot under the sound hole.

Paul, your input, as always, is appreciated.  The plugged holes are 3/8 inch and if you look at the round imprint left by the original tuners, there appear to be 2 small dimples left by the "horns" on the back of the tuner.  That would lead me to think that there were tuners like this when it was made:

http://www.vintagemartin.com/tuners.html

It looks as though the Pancake tuners would be very close to the original.  I found some original ones on line but they were $60 each.

Your question about the "destiny" of this guitar was also very pertinent.  I never play this guitar, but I have a hard time not doing "the right thing" for an instrument of this age.  I don't think that the peghead has ever been modified.

Anybody have any thoughts about the "look alike" tenor?

George