FRETS.NET

I was fortunate, I think, to buy a 1931 0-18 needing repairs which I think I have the ability to make.  My intention is to make a solidly repaired, high quality "player" guitar while preserving its originality as much as possible. Without knowing for certain, it appears 3 bad things happened to it. Photos are attached. I'd like to consult about the sequence of repairs, or if the sequence doesn't really matter.

 

First an open but securely, professionally repaired crack goes from the bridge to the end block. There are also two 1.5 in. cracks going in opposite directions in the sides from the rosewood center piece edges with no repair work apparent inside. It looks all these cracks resulted from the guitar being dropped on the end pin, which is missing.

Second, it came to Colorado about 20 years ago from Indiana, and no humidification was done at all. Damages resulting were open cracks in the top on both sides of the fingerboard, open seam between the top halves from sound hole to bridge and a barely open seam between the back halves. There is a tongue brace and all braces appear and feel to be firmly intact. The fret ends also stick out nearly the entire length of the fingerboard in serious need of being dressed ... seriously sharp edges!

Third, the previous owner, who had the guitar in the family since new, wanted to start to learn how to play guitar, and started to string it up w/med. gauge strings. He stopped tuning up when he heard a loud "crack". That noise was likely the bridge cracking thru the peg holes nearly split in half, and three new cracks in the top, one from the hi E edge of the bridge toward the end block, and probably 2 parallel cracks about 1/4 in. apart from the low E edge of the bridge all the way to the binding.

 

I'm re-humidifying it with a couple Rubbermaid small square food containers with loose fitting moist sponges cut to fit, and holes drilled in the containers. I have a rubber sound hole "stopper" that just rests on the sound hole (doesn't fit in the hole), and it's been in a closed case at house temperature lying flat to keep the stopper over the sound hole. The cracks I attributed to the second and third mishaps all have closed or shrunken noticeably over a period of several weeks to a month. That's all I've done.

 

Based on my description of the problems and the photos, am I mistaken in my judgement that this should be seen as a "player"? It will probably need a neck reset too, but after the cracks have been shored up. I assume there are hundreds of guitars from this era in far better condition as collector material. Or should this be viewed as a diamond in the rough that needs professional attention?

 

If I'm correct in my assumption this is a "player" guitar, and repairs I want to make will be functional but not necessarily "aesthetically pleasing", I want to try to keep the original bridge. I'm guessing it can be shored up with black superglue that will likely be somewhat apparent and ugly. It may be that a repair attempt will fail and then I'd replace it.

 

I don't think I want to do anything to the big, repaired crack. It seems totally stable with 2 diamond shaped cleats.

 

As I said in the beginning, I’m looking for “what to do” advice and not “how to do” advice.

 

Thanks, as always, for that advice!

Views: 1015

Attachments:

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

This guitar needs at least to be looked at by a professional. The misalignment visible at the soundhole indicates that the neck block may be loose.

I'd put it in the "diamond in the rough" category! A valuable instrument that should not get screwed up.

2nd the professional bit. I am fixing up a much worse 1929 tenor guitar, but that is not a high value item. This is not in horrible shape, and may be worth a fair amount. Certainly the neck block needs to be fixed, and the. You will probably need a neck reset as well, which needs practice on something a lot cheaper than this beauty.

3rd on getting it looked at by a pro. One who knows vintage Martins. Nothing kills value on a guitar like this more than than improper repairs.

Here is a link to a deep well of information on Martins.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/forums/3/The-Vintage...

Where in Colorado are you?

4th vote for professional work.

Seek out an experience restoration expert specializing in Martins of this era. If repaired/restored  professionally, it'll be worth A LOT of money.

Nice find !!!!!!

Another vote for a professional check.  If it were mine, I'd be most worried about the cracks and shift in the top around the fingerboard. You need to make sure the neck block is still secure As Greg pointed out, it looks like it's shifted.

 Personally, I'm not to comfortable with leaving open cracks even if it has cleats. If it were mine, I think I want to have the open crack cleaned as best it can be at this point then splined. 

The bridge looks like it's been off at some time in the recent past which makes me wonder if it's actually original. I base the time line on the fact that there appears to be a fine line of pretty newly exposed wood around the outline of the bridge.  It may still be the original bridge but I would consider replacing it since it's cracked down it's length. When I look at something like this, I tend to think, "how would I see this if I was purchasing this guitar".  In this case, I would consider this as something that need to be replaced and I would adjust the value of the guitar downward accordingly. If the crack is gaping even a little bit, it's an indication that the bridge pulling apart and distorting the top. I don't think it's really possible to stabilize a stress fissure like this by filling it with glue. The pressure isn't down from the top, it's up from underneath. I suppose it may be possible to remove the bridge and clamp it back together when you glue it but  I think if you're going to tune it to pitch and play it, the bridge should probably be replaced. ( Don't forget to check the bridge plate for cracks and warping.)

One last thing that probably isn't much of an issue is that there appear to be some scratches under the pick guard that have been covered by the addition of the guard. I don't have a particular problem with this but I'd make a check of the inside top in that area just to make sure there's not a surprise ( what with all the talk about Willie Nelson's Trigger on the forum recently).   

I know you were specific about wanting advice on the order of operation and Ive gone on about it all a bit much but that's my thinking on the pictures you posted. Oh yeah, I really like the guitar! 

6th on getting it into a Pro's hands for evaluation. You are a pretty blessed fella to end up with such an axe! 

Hi Ned,

Very astute of you about the bridge. Looking w/a hand lense there is indeed bare wood around bridge. It's pure black didn't match the fingerboard, which struck me as odd, and it's almost certainly a replacement. I kinda feel a teeny bit better that it's not the original bridge that was damaged by med. gauge string incident.

Bridge plate is completely solid w/slots from string wear evident as in bridge and minimal ball end wear.

Bead of hide glue at neck block where top cracks along fingerboard disappear is not at all disturbed, Seams of neck heel are visually completely intact and completely sealed. That suggests to me that the gaps at end of fingerboard near sound hole are just shrinkage damage.

There is some abrasion to the pickguard surface that's not due to playing wear as far as I can tell. Pickguard has a very shallow concave feel to the surface and appears to be original.

I hear the cautionary advice and will take it to a well qualified professional for a neck reset estimate at the very least, but also to evaluate the neck block stability. At this point the original tuners, original fingerboard w/lightly worn original frets and original finish in nice condition seem to be the strong points.

Thanks for the quick assessment and feedback, Ned. It's still being humidified in its original case. New hardshell case on the way for appropriate protection. I have two other projects in progress so this will wait for awhile. Any other comments are welcome, of course.

 I'm glad you feel better about changing the bridge.You probably already know but remember to check the intonation before you cut a new slot. Some of these aren't so well intoned.

 I really love these old martins. I keep telling my wife that I NEED one of these but I don't think our definition of "need" is the same plus she says terrible things like, "What are you going to get rid of to make room?"  and such. It's a  hard life of privation that I'm living. 

I'm back with a quick question about what glue to use in what I think is a tricky spot. The cross brace and tongue brace under the fingerboard appear to be firmly glued to the top. However there is one crack in the top along each edge of the fingerboard going from the sound hole to the neck block.

I've done the humidification of the guitar fairly gradually in its case, and have seen the narrowest cracks get narrower to a very encouraging point. The most dramatic change has been (see 2nd photo) for the crack at the sound hole next to the pick guard close to where it looks like just a finish crack almost, and the sound hole inlay is almost perfectly back in place. The crack on the low E side of the fingerboard is greatly reduced but still apparent as an open crack. Sound hole inlay on that side is also very nicely in place.

I'm making rectangular cleats with grain that will be perpendicular to top grain to glue between the neck block/tongue brace and the tongue brace/cross brace. They will approximate the thickness of the top or maybe somewhat more. The cracks are easily accessible and I should be able to repair them without any problem.

I'm going to have a professional luthier straighten the somewhat bowed neck and do a neck reset.The reset means he has to heat the fingerboard to loosen it from the cracked top section underneath. What glue would be best to attach the cleats that are reinforcing the integrity of the top under the fingerboard? I was going to ask him this question too, but I wanted to check with y'all. 

As I typed the last sentence it occurred to me it might be a dumb question, since I will almost certainly use what my pro recommends. He only works certain days of the week and this isn't one of them. I guess I'll ask anyway since I doubt there is one and only one answer for this. Besides, my intention is to learn something, not second guess anyone.

Larry, I don't think it's ever dumb to get more than one opinion. Everyone will do any given job a bit differently but I think it's easier to decide if you get answers that are along the same line. 

For my part, given the guitar's vintage, I would use hot hide glue. If everything is ready to go, it's  not too hard to paint the glue on the cleat and get the into place. If the part is very large, I'll usually clamp it but I found that I can sometimes hold smaller cleats in place for a few minutes, until the hhg gels, and they will stay in place unless I bang things around. I have used masking tape to hold small cleats in place too but be forewarned that it's totally possible to glue the tape to the guitar too.

When I glue cleats with hhg I try to place the cleat with as little sliding around as I can. Some sliding is inevitable for me but I think that sliding parts around when the glue starts to gel can severely weaken the bond.  

BTW, I found out the hard way that pressing on a cleat too hard may distort the plate your' trying to reinforce so that when you release the pressure the plate springs back, knocking the cleat off. It doesn't take a lot of finger pressure to hold a small cleat.   

 Larry, the cracks beside  the fretboard are best fixed when the neck is off the guitar. Get the pro guy to do it at the same time?

 What are you doing about the cracked in half bridge? Many Luthiers were SUPER happy 30 years ago when crazy glue first came out and they found that it  is excellent for this repair.

 So on to other stuff......  

  There are many possible reasons you are not getting the Luthier to do all the repair work,

      The Luthier says he wont do it, you don't trust his experience, you maybe can't afford it, you just want to do the work yourself Etc...  so I won't ask, but learning crack repair (again if you have not done this before) on a historically significant instrument sounds like a 'not so good' idea.

Good guitar crack repair takes a long time to learn to do without making the crack worse. This can be pretty darn finicky job. 

 Just as an aside, I have no clue your experience level with this sort of thing, but you seem to do your research which is a great thing.

  But you saying  "As I said in the beginning, I’m looking for “what to do” advice and not “how to do” advice."  leads me to think that you will do these repairs yourself whatever this community advises. In the past on this Forum, there have been some heated debates about this sort of thing.

  If this were me, and I had not done these repairs before, I certainly would not be trying my hand at doing this on this historic guitar.

In the long run, this is your guitar to do with as you will.    We will help regardless... 

I did an appraisal on a 1936 OOO-18 recently that I rated in very good condition.

What would reduce the appraisal value on any vintage guitar is if work is performed by folks who are not well versed and experienced with working with in this case vintage Martins.  Guitars that can document who did the work on them in the pro sense retain more value.  Visit Elderly's site and count how may times in the descriptions of instruments they pass judgement on prior repairs.

Although this one is not nearly as valuable as the OOO it's still valuable meaning that not only should the instrument be treated with great respect in respect to who does any work "with" it recent repairs that can not be documented as to if it was a "pro" job or not will reduce it's value.  

Regarding if it's a player or a coveted vintage and historical piece I would treat it as either nixing any conflicts between the two designations.  More specifically this guitar needs to be worked on by professionals.

With this said I fully understand it's yours and respect this too.  If you have a hankering to toil with Lutherie there are lots of very fine mules on ebay that would be great for this.  If you are a pro Luthier please excuse me in advance here because I can't know everyone.

These instruments can be very fine players with excellent tone too for a small bodied instrument.

Judging from the pics my suggestion is to have the work done correctly and avoid doing any of it yourself if you are not highly experienced with this kind of thing.  Although not what you may want to hear but if you have to ask how to proceed you likely should not be doing this one yourself.  No offense intended.

Going back again to the fact that it's yours to do with as you please.  There is a school of thought in the biz these days that could best be understood by listening to Neil Young's tune "This Old Guitar."  In this great tune he discusses the idea that even though his old Martin is indeed his he still views himself as the "current steward" of the instrument leaving open the idea that there will be other stewards after him.  With this kind of thinking we are less free to do as we please with iconic instruments instead being very fortunate to have them in our lives as long as they are in our lives.  I personally subscribe to this reasoning and the guitars that I am the current steward of are cared for as if I will not be the last.

It's a preservation point of view which always includes very high quality, serviceable work and materials and decent knowledge of what one has, what it needs, what's preservation and what's out of bounds value preservation wise.

Anyway very cool guitar and in pretty decent shape too considering it's age.  If it were mine and if I was not a professional I would take it to one.

RSS

© 2024   Created by Frank Ford.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service