Repair Bluebook?

[jason Burns]

I would love to see a current list of average repair prices. I never know if I am not charging enough or charging too much. I have seen older bluebook price lists in stew mac publications but nothing current. Anyone know of anything out there.

[Mike Kolb]

Excellent idea. From what I've been reading here, my charges for almost everything is way-y-y under the norm. I have no problem charging $100 for an simple, unbound refret job on a rosewood neck, (an extra $25 for binding, an extra $35 for a gloss maple neck), $35 or so for a simple cracked headstock, $45 for a fret dressing, ad nauseum. The last neck reset I did on a D-28 was $200, and that included a fret dressing, a new saddle and a set of strings.

So am I an idiot or what? My overhead is low and my tools are more than paid-for, so there's no need to drive-off business, particularly in this economy. Hmmm, or could I be really, really wrong here?

I remember, at a Tacoma G.A.L. get-together, Frank Ford said that luthiers, as a rule, should charge roughly what the average automobile mechanic, in the same geographical area, would charge. I'd love to hear a number of folks chime-in on this one.

[Jim Bancroft]

I figure $30.00 per hour for repair work. Last time I was at Elderly Instruments repair shop I think the sign on the wall said $65.00 per hour.
My work area is in my basement, and I'm not depending on it for a living, and I doubt I'm hurting any of the major repair places. Actually I'm so far out in the sticks, 200 miles from any repair facility, that I don't think it hurts them. I'm retired from my regular job so repairs supplement retirement some.
I know everyone says, "you get what you pay for", but after seeing others work, I think I do quality repairs, but at a more reasonable price.

Auto repair shops in this area charge $65.00 to $80.00 per hour.

I got into repair work, because I enjoy it, and I wanted to do my own repairs, but it has gone to doing repairs for most of the local musician, and others farther away.

As far as a blue book, I've never seen one.

Jim

[Russell Vance]

Jason, its a good topic and it is vitally important to the future of luthiery and repair as a viable job. I will revisit this topic with a price list if required but first I would like to establish some basic things: My colleagues and myself are professional luthiers and repairmen who work, full time, at the peak of the industry and we do it for our living.

The prices we charge are determined by the amount of money we need to make to provide a living, provide profit for paying overheads and investment in our businesses and provide money to maintain and increase our standard of living. If you are not subscribing to this formula you are not in business, you are simply doing a hobby or keeping occupied. If you have difficulty with this concept please don't complain - my livelyhood and continued efforts in this trade depend on realistic figures being charged for work done.

Once you work out the household budget, the cost of your vehicle and premises, insurance, utilities, expendable products, wear and tear on equipment, new equipment, insurance for everything that needs it and a couple of weeks for holidays (that nobody else pays for) and week off for the flu you quickly start to get the picture. If your partner works and subsidizes you business and work lifestyle - you might want to factor in how you are going to pay him/her back the money they put into maintaining your business and why you need subsidizing in the first place.

Secondly, luthiery and repair work by well meaning amateurs is typified by as number of things - cheap and erratic prices, rudimentary technique and quality assurance, basic general purpose tools and equipment and light and variable working hours ...the list goes on.

Now, this is not to sledge amateurs - but it explains the death spiral that we find the industry in - cheap work does not generate the income required for the tradesman to invest in state-of-the art tools and equipment or indeed allow for training courses or studies in thing like luthiery, electronics, wood technology and cabinet making practices to name a few. It also prevents hiring other repairmen/luthiers who wish to learn the trade as the underfunded shops cannot afford to hire qualified people.

The luthiery schools offer a glimmer of hope, but three weeks of step by step 'build a guitar' work in someones well fitted out machine shop is only a beginning. This process cannot make a retired accountant or a starry-eyed kid into a guitar maker in three weeks - it just makes them dangerous. Consequently, the industry lacks quality and standards and the customer plays Russian Roulette every time he steps up to a new repairman/luthier.

At this stage I will go to work (cannot afford to spend hours chin-wagging, the job requires discipline) and wait for replies. But, there is a lot more to go if you are interested.

[David Houchens]

First off, I want to say that quality work doesn't always have to cost more. I believe I do quality work. I learned alot of building technique at a very respectable shop. At that time I was building banjos, but I had the privilege of working with John Hamlett, the best repair person I have ever met. I picked his brain most every day. And he was glad to help. Now , I am guilty of charging too little and building and repair are my living. I'm not against money or anything like that,I just really enjoy what I do. I do work out of a small shop at my home, and don't have a lot of overhead. I lose building time by doing the repairs but they go hand in hand. One can learn alot about building instruments by working on instruments built by different people. I actually do a little bartering instead of money with a few people I deal with. traded a very nice F5 mandolin for my pickup truck.
I think the biggest thing that allows me to work for less than most is my lifestyle doesn't command a lot of money. I'm a country boy who grew up liking a simple life. My wife has a good job, but I hold up my end just fine. My priorities are God, my family and then my work. In that order. I believe this is the biggest reason that money just doesn't shine for me like it does for most people.
All that being said, a lot of people keep coming back and telling others, and they keep coming back. I meet so many great people, and make some really good friends. And to me, this is what real living is all about.
If a quarter could get you around the world, some days I couldn't get to the store up the road, but in my heart and in my mind I'm one of the richest people alive. Thanks, David

[William F.Eden]

A men David you are my kind of man we must have been cut from the same cloth Bill

[Jim Bancroft]

I also have to agree that because someone doesn't charge top dollar, does not have a Luthier degree, just does it as a hobby or part time, works out of small home shop, ect., doesn't mean that the their repairs are below par. I've seen plenty of shoddy workmanship, even by so call professional Luthiers.

But, I'm all for the professional Luthier, that needs to make a living, pay the bills, ect., they have to make a decent living. No problem with that.
For the amount of work I do, and my location, I doubt seriously if I'm a threat to someone trying to make a living at this.

Jim

[Charlie Hoffman]

I think that one problem with the notion of a "Blue Book" is that overhead can be wildly different in different locales. I am willing to bet that Frank in Palo Alto or someone in NYC has serious overhead to deal with and that has to be factored in. While I agree with the notion that small shops ("home shops?") need not be equated with poor work (or vice versa) there is no doubt that a shop with the experience and tools to take on any job are likely to be more expensive to run. Utilities, phone, insurance (not a small thing when I carry insurance on my customer's guitars while they are in the shop and we frequently have instruments worth more than $25,000), rent, tools (Stew Mac must love me) and a significant inventory in repair parts) all add up. There is also a matter of pay for employees. I have 5 employees who do repairs and they have been with me respectively, for 26, 24, 18, and 6 years (the 5th is new to me but has been in the biz full time since 1991). I pay them well. But in fact they work on a piecework basis so while the shop rate is $90, they have to spend time talking to customers, ringing up sales, doing estimates, etc etc, and there will be times when their "plate is not full". I pay them noticably morre than half of the shop rate but the factors mentioned above keep their take home a bit less than it might seem. Bottom line, they earn noticably less than the metropolitan median income and that is simply not a "high paying job" in my book. Granted we all love the work and the customers but I have employees who are HIGHLY trained and skilled and they deserve to be paid accordingly. And it might not be surprising to know that I would like to make a profit for me as well (well, not last year and I expect not this year). Frank's notion of a rate near that of good auto mechanics (or plumbers or electricians) makes good sense to me.

[Russell Vance]

Hopefully we will generate a few more fine examples of situations and circumstances that will help our understanding of the business end of the trade. The reason I decided to stick my spurs into the 'elephant in the room' was that we desperately need to make the industry/trade/craft attractive otherwize we will loose our skills. Ever wondered why all the good repairmen/luthiers are looking so old?

The best guys in the business here are lucky to take home $50-60k a year whereas, here a McDonalds junior makes $20k and a 19 year old clerk in the public service gets $40k. Hard to take on an apprentice to learn what we have to know when he can get much more doing nothing with no qualifications or skills required and have holidays, sick leave and superannuation provided etc etc.

I note and understand that different demographics and socioeconomic regions will generate different price structures but it shouldn't be much - the price of a guitar is much the same in New York as it is in Lodi - so is getting your truck serviced, and so on - why do we insist on gutting our own industry by chronic undercharging. Some times my colleagues actually apologize for charging to do a job (I did for years - but not now).

However, no matter how hard we agitate to get some standardisation in prices we charge it is wasted effort if those at the fringe of this business refuse to accept the need for price structure. I used to help all and sundry learn how to do the things and freely shared my trade knowledge etc. I don't now, I only share with professional luthiers and repairmen who are responsible in their business practices.

Sound Harsh? Try investing in a full refret system and developing the skills and procedures need to meet all manner of refretting challenges only to have a guy working on his kitchen table with a double cut bastard file, a ruler and a sheet of sandpaper telling customers that you charge too much and that all that other stuff is not required. We all know someone like this. Do you ever see a plumber or an electrician working for less than their going blue book rate - these guys work on tap sets and light fittings - we work on $10K guitars with complex problems and get paid a third of what they do. It doesn't make sense.

There is, in my mind, a definite case to be made for a standard price list for our services. You will get undercut by amateurs, no doubt, but eventually these individuals get sick of working for nothing and their customers
often wake up to their generally substandard work and seek a professional solution to their needs (this has happened noticeably in our area as we have become established and our reputation established).

I'm interested in all opinions and experiences in this area of the business (how to make it pay, and pay well) and hope that nobody is offended by my approach to this issue. Mind you most of the old hands will nod sagely and say nothing on the subject - we get tired of trying to get the industry into some kind of shape. Rusty.

[David Houchens]

I only get business from people up to 3 hours drive away, but they keep driving that 3 hours to get me to do thier work. I'm sure my prices are part of this, but if they weren't happy with the work I think they would quit coming. My only advetisement is word of mouth.
As for THE INDUSTRY, It can take care of itself. Look at the car industry. I would like to think people wouldn't see any of this type of dealings in my business. Its my feeling, when industry moves in.craftmanship is thrown aside. The top concern becomes the profit margin. This is my only means of livelyhood but will never be an industry to me. The people I know who do this work do it because they love it. There will always be people who can and will carry on the craft without industrializing it.
My only employee is a cat. I feed him at the top of the feed scale. He is whats known in the business as a fat cat.
I probably only have about $12000.00 in tools and supplies in my instrument shop. Probably $15,000.00 in my machine shop at my fathers home. No rent. No driving to work and back. I do pay around $1,200.00 a year for insurance, (yes I have worked on $10,000.00 guitars as well ,although thats far from my normal repair). I'm the guy that an old man that scrimped and saved just to buy a early 60's D28 can afford to come to for a refret. He gets a refret that as good as martins or better. And usually I give him lower action than the guitar had new and without the buzzes. I'm not knocking Martin by this. Thier upper end is still a very nice guitar. But I do think thier lower end is what comes from big business trying to do craftsman quality work. My company is small enough not to worry what others sell thier instruments for or what others charge for thier repair work. There will always be people who hear an instruments worth and will pay for it. They also can see an feel quality work.
I don't mind people making what they feel the market will pay. It pretty much insures plenty of business for me, and this is good because I don't ever intend on retiring.
I can afford to fix instruments that other shops might not even take on. I'm working on an old slope shouldered J45 that had severe water damage. Top separated and warpped totally out of shape, Had to remove back, remove bridge patch and all top braces that hadn't fallen out. Sand bagged the top back into shape. The top halve edges were too scalloped to rejoin so I had to add a splint up the middle. Made all new red spruce braces, rosewood bridge patch and reassembled. The point I'm getting to is I doubt any large shop would do this for a price the average guy could afford If they took it on at all. This guitar went all over Veit Nam with this man and when brought to me sentimental value was all it was worth. He's not in any hurry, I bump it along now and then and he will get it back for about $500.00. Let me sat this is not a restoration job by any means. The splint up to the sound hole will be visible. Probably from 10 ft away. He couldn't afford restoration prices. But his Gibson will sing again.
Sorry I got so long winded. All I want people to know is there are still people who do very good work for a reasonable price. thanks for the ear, David

[David Houchens]

Thought I might add a thing or three.
First off to Randy and other businesses. I meant no disrespect to you or your business in my previous post. I have worked for other businesses and understand that to stay in business you have to make money. And my prices have and will again go up as needed. Its all a matter of overhead and the number of clients you wish to serve.
I do service very nice acoustic instruments. I also have done some restoration work on vintage inst.
But I will also help out the starving musician people. I can't help it. I'm proud to help the poor man as well. It is how I was raised. Part of my fetchin-up you could say.
My biggest income comes from selling my instruments. So I'm in a little different situation.
I also don't work on electric instruments, which means I don't have to stock alot of the things others do.
I just get tested some times when I feel like people think for something to be worth anything it has to cost alot. It can be true, but not always the case. Again I hope I didn't offend anyone, sure didn't mean to. DAvid

[Rob Mercure]

While I support the Blue Book idea I'd like to know where a a 19 year old clerk in the public service gets $40k as I've got a Master's in land use planning, over ten years experience, national certification - have severed as a local and state planner as well as a small town manager - and the best I've been able to pull in rural and urban Virginia and Kentucky is $38K! You've got to realize that the average wage varies a lot from place to place and, now living in the Central Appalachian coalfields where I grew up (and where live several big name bluegrass musicans who can afford bucks) and around here the best I can get is about $35/hour for any professional repair work (I'm also an electronic tech and I used to be a massage therapist). In fact I think that you'll find any area that can't support a full time instrument repairman - such as here - the wages are poor. While I think the idea of comparison to an auto mechanic is good most mechanics who make good money work for dealers and do warranty work and there are always "shade tree" or other low overhead mechanics (such as me at times) who have to make a living.

And the cost of living really isn't that much cheaper around here - taxes are but everything else still costs about the same as elsewhere (perhaps rental is cheaper - more el cheapo rentals).

My $0.02

Rob

[Jim Bancroft]

Rob,
I agree with everything you said. It's true, prices vary greatly from area to area.

My Son just moved to Anchorage, and I helped him drive his car(Dec. 2008). Once in Anchorage, I took his car(Chevy Malibu) in for a standard oil change at Jiffy Lube, it cost $62.00. Here (N. Mich.) it costs $28.00 for the same thing.
I spent over 36 years working as a Forest Fire Officer for the state of Mich. and when I retired in 2002 I was making slightly over $40,000.00 per year. So I think the statement about a clerk making $40,000.00, is a bit inflated, at least for around here.

If the economy continues has it has, I think there will be alot more people taking a cut in pay.

Jim