How much do different Piezo pickups affect the acoustic sound?

[Bob Steinarsson]

Piezo undersaddle pickups can be like a flexible cable, or they can be more like a hard bar. Does anybody have some opinion of how much these pickups affect the acoustic sound of the instrument?

[Tim Mace]

IMO...Big/huge..I hear the term "quack" a lot concerning the disc type which some have deemed inadequate but I still think if

they are well placed inside or out give convincing pos.results.Sometimes connections are flawed because the wire is so fragile or loose.I don't purchase the factory made any more but make my own.Some are much better than others for reasons I don't understand as I'm really not electronics oriented but once you make a good one you know it when plugged in.You should use a preamp and not much treb or mid.I always apply them to favor the bass side either just forward or behind bridge.Test on the outside til' you find that "spot" and if desired mimic the position on the inside to hook up to jack.Forward more pick/finger noise back more subtle...

I don't care for the under saddle because of all the complications w/install and performance and neither type is better than a decent mic but when combined are very compatable in the right hands/ears.I use the dime size piezo on fiddle

and usually quarter size on mandos or guitar.Also have several of the flex/tape type from Windsong but haven't been as successful soldering my own so maybe the next time I'll try their ready made 'cause they do have a smoother tone balance.I've had great results w/ McIntyres too.The one on my D-28 still kicks butt and it's the quartersize from over 20 yrs ago.Same w/ my classical.That's all I think I know right at this moment.Oh yeah I think the Ovation system mounted in another guitar would sound good!!!!

 

 

[Rob Mercure]

So much that far too many musicians now associate the piezo "quack" with the term "acoustic" thus allowing a manufacturer to sell under saddle piezo inserts for a solid body electric guitar for that "acoustic" sound - and a wide number believe it be so!  Were Donald and Daffy Duck actually corporate they've have a field day on tour cuz' then the audience could get vocal quacking as well as instrumental (the point of that silly sentence being that if a microphone changed human vocals as much as a piezo does the sound of any guitar a Mel Blanc imitation would suffice for heavy metal scream or a punk growl!).  Unfortunately mathematically impossible to state anything logically as more than 100% udderwise I'd note something like 300% (3 X ) IMNSHO.

 

Rob

[Bob Steinarsson]

Thanks, but my main concern is the acoustic/non-amplified sound of the guitar after the installation of the pickup compared to the sound before installation

[Tim Mace]

Now that's a different interpretation of your original ? IMO it's bound to affect the resonance in some way that may not be noticable to a not so detectable ear but should be visable on a machine that can .I'd say it depends on the install but believe that anything added between the bridge and saddle has got to have "some"affect if not effect...weak or vacant spots created by unequal pressure?

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

Usually, not much. Personally, I think the tone can be adversely affected by the sloppier saddle fit that USTs require.

 

I've never heard SBTs sound "quacky".

 

If you can stand the tone of a quackstick plugged in, go for it.  I'd rather drop big rocks on my bare feet.

[Mark A. Kane]

I have all manner of opinion on this (and many other!) subjects. All things being equal, and assuming a good bridge/saddle fit, the Fishman Matrix style (inflexible) has the least (to my ear) effect, if any, on tone. Maybe I have a tin ear, though! I've installed bunches of these and can't say I have ever been able to discern a difference before and after. I suspect it has to do with the relatively hard nature of the pickup. I would guess it's at least as hard as maple. Conventional wisdom suggests that anything between the saddle and bridge is a negative, but I've seen plenty of players with old Martins and the like routinely switch out maple shims from summer to winter with no obvious or discernible difference in fidelity. The Matrix was the go-to pickup in our store for a decade (until we discovered the bliss associated with  K&K pickups) and I don't remember a customer complaining about the acoustic tone. But the LR Baggs, well....

 

...that pickup is another story altogether. It's a flexible pickup attached to a hunk of rubber that, to my tin ear absolutely affects the acoustic tone. I hesitate to say it's always negative, however. I only say it affects the tone noticeably. The volume in general is diminished, not in any great amount, maybe 10-15% at most? It's hard to judge.  I do say that the sparklyness goes away. I also say that in certain guitars, this may be regarded as a plus! Our store quit carrying these many years ago as the K&K stuff is superior in every way.  I've removed a number of these rubber Baggs systems over the years (along with that awful contraption called the I-Beam) at customers' request in favor of nicer gear.

 

I'd put the B-Band in league with the Fishman as far as it's non-effect on tone, but the install can be problematic owing to the angle of the hole through the bridge.

 

Lastly, though I make no claims about the tone as I've never actually installed one, I despise those coaxial elements I see occasionally. They are generally ill-fitting, and mated to inferior preamps.  Their sloppiness in the slot, and the fact that they compress under string tension irritates my mechanical sensibilities. I've only had occasion to remove them, which I do with disdain, chiding in my mind the executive type who made the decision to utilize such a contemptible contrivance  in the first instance. Tsk, tsk.

 

Enough of my opinion. For now.

[Chris Rochow]

Hi Mark,

Whjich supplier may I purchase the K&K pick ups from?  Thanks!

Chris

[Chris Rochow]

Hi Tim!

Could you please inform me as to where to purchase the piezo parts? And making them? Love to try it !

Many thanks!

[Kerry Krishna]

The K and K pickups are for sale all over North America at most (?) guitar stores. These are said by many folks who know to be the most acoustically transparent, I think, mostly because all the surface area they are glued to would only equal about the same real estate as your index finger's nail.  Bob, your original question has been talked about on many Forums. There are only a small percentage of folks that can hear a difference in the 'Before and After' of an under saddle pickup being installed. That being said, it DOES make sense that there would be a difference. Those pieces of aluminum wrapped crystals ARE getting between the bone saddle and the wood, so...I have had a customer or two over the years that swear they can tell a difference. Undersaddle Piezos and preamps by themselves are really getting to be VERA old tech. Speaking personally, I am sick of listening to them after all these years.  The tech surrounding them is now 40 years old. A better, more modern way is to get something similar to the Fishman Elypse System, which is a soundhole mounted control unit that has a small mic attached, and then run a K and K system into it instead of the undersaddle. There is a blend slider to go from mic to piezo, , a volume slider, and a phase switch. When I was using this system a few years ago, I would run it at around 80% mic going to front of house. If there was a feedback problem, I would turn the piezo up more. An offshoot of this system is that soundpeople instantly LOVE you for giving them Such an amazing strong lifelike sounding signal.

[Tim Mace]

All I do when I want a piezo disc is go to Radio Shack,rifle thru the buzzer drawer for part #273-0073.Remove the plastic enclosure,pry out the disc.Clip the wires down to about an inch,solder 1/8 in RCA cord w/1/4plug.Test it

seal up the exposed connection neatly w/a glob of epoxy.When dry readt to stick on using 3M double sided foam

tape trimmed to accomodate the disc.

Some are better than others..could be a poor solder job or unseen defect but when it's right you'll know.You should be prepared to spend at least $3.00.No one can convince me they don't sound as good as most brands but placement is crucial so don't set it too hard at first til' you settle on a good spot w/ the sound favoring the low end IMO.Use a preamp & EQ

[Howard Klepper]

I am absolutely certain that they cannot help it.

[Paul Verticchio]

My acoustics sound different each time I pull them out of the case.  Doesn't everyone's?

 

Here's my advice to folks looking for a stage guitar with a UST:

Buy a low to mid-line structurally stable A/E for stage use.  It's going to get abused by the environment anyway and HQ live audio is a total crap shoot.  Invest your good money in a finely crafted acoustic for personal playing pleasure and recording.  Two appropriately different tools for two completely different applications.

 

Also, the reason I refer to these as "stage guitars" is because unless a person is using it to perform live, why the heck would you install a UST in the first place?

 

Best of luck to everyone.