Common Fret Buzz - Opinions

[Pete Andreev]

I've heard about a dozen different methods claiming to be the most sensible fix, so I wanted to bring it up here amongst more experienced luthiers.

I've got an archtop that is set up beautifully with nice low action and great playability overall. There's just one minor bug - high E string buzzing. The open string itself will only buzz if it's played with some force, like when playing loudly. Aside from that, a very tiny bit of buzzing is audible when playing around frets 3 to 6.

Rather than taking a file to the frets, I would assume that the most logical and effective fix would be to raise the string up a bit in its nut slot.

Suggestions on the best way to go about this? Or maybe another method entirely?

[Mike Kolb]

Hi Pete...  

"Buzzing" is a generic term that covers a lot of ground and can originate in a hundred different ways. Here's a link to the best advice ever on buzzing.  http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/BuzzDiagnosis/b...

Go through the diagnosis page first, then on to the "The Big Buzz List" :)  Frank did a remarkable job of laying it all out.  The best of luck with your issue.

[LARRY KLOSE]

As Mike says, review and execute Frank's list.

Also, I have an archtop with a top mounted pickup.  It had a buzz that only appeared when playing an A-flat.  turned out that the retention ring around the pickup wasn't screwed tightly to the top.  Buzzes can be everywhere.

Larry

[Paul Verticchio]

The buzz on the open E string is likely caused by a nut slot in need of an adjustment.   There are several possibilities for the cause but the cited reference material will provide those.

The buzz on the fretted notes, again, could be caused by several factors including the need for a neck relief adjustment and/or high/low frets or an issue with the crown shape of the frets.

BTW: raising the action at the nut (as it seems is appropriate), it WILL NOT have an effect on the fretted notes buzzing.

In addition to Frank's essays, there are dozens of posts on this forum about buzzing and setting action. Personally, unless the 'action' of the guitar is addressed as a multi-component 'system', you could end up creating a new issue with each one you thought you addressed.

Again, the ability to diagnose & fix issues will become easier the more you do it.  I've observed that players who work only on their own instruments have a much longer "learning curve period" than techs who work in a true repair environment.  The only difference: exposure to a large volume and variety of issues and their related fixes. There is NOTHING in the craft more vital than practical application of skills. Summary: It's a very complicated craft and nothing is more valuable than exposure and practice.

Best of luck. Sounds like you're on your way :)

[Pete Andreev]

Thanks for the reference, cool page.

I'm fairly certain the problem is that the nut slot is just a few 1/100s of an inch too low. I can hear that the string is contacting a fret.

Let's assume this is correct...how would you go about getting a string to sit a little higher in its nut slot?

[Hesh Breakstone]

Hi Pete;  I think that there are a couple if issues here.

First if the open high E buzzes it sounds like the nut slot is too low.  If you fret between the second and third frets and hold it and then tap the string directly on top of the first fret crown there needs to be a bit of space there.  Mind you very little space and it can be difficult to see but you also will hear a "tink" when doing this and tapping the high e string on top of the first fret while holding it fretted between the second and third.  No tink, no space that you can see and the slot has worn too low.

How to fix:  A number of options with some being far better than others but I'm just going to throw them all out here or at least the ones that I know.  

1)  At times, not always, a nut slot that is too low can be back filed never touching the slot depth at the face of the nut and slot.  This can increase the string ark over the nut and give you a bit more height.  It's not much but at times can be all that is needed.  Be careful to not stub the nut slot file into the head stock since when back filing you are no longer halving the head stock set back angle but instead duplicating it.

2)  Shim the nut - not eloquent, quick and dirty, needs to be appropriate for the instrument.  Shims can be mahogany avoiding using end grain under the nut ends and it will look better.  Many other materials work too for shims.

3)  Fill the low nut slot and recut.  Some folks like CA and bone dust.  We took Frank's lead and use dental fillings that are UV cured and come in a plethora of different shades too...  The great thing about using dental fillings is that it's much harder than dust and CA and possibly harder than a bone nut itself, never checked that one out yet...

4)  Replace nut.

Now the buzzing that you hear on fretted note is likely a different issue with either the action or relief, as Paul said, being off or too low for the quality of the level set of the fret plane.

It could be that a truss rod tweak adding relief will work and it could be that the action is too low for the quality of the level set of the fret plane.

The solution would be a precision fret dress and never addressing high frets in isolation but instead leveling the entire fret plane, recrowning, polishing, etc.  Low action requires decent fret work and since you like the action low it could be that you need to have a fret dress as well.

Loose frets that may get pushed down while leveling and then pop back up with no pressure on them can be an issue too.  Checking for loose frets would be advisable as well.

Another consideration and I don't know where you are located but in the midwestern US it's winter and that means dry guitars....  We frequently, every day in fact, see dry guitars and it often can manifest in inducing some back bow in the neck or reducing relief.  So again as Paul said checking the relief would be prudent too.

And lastly for now if your archie has a PUP if the pup is too close to the strings or certain strings the magnetic pull of the pup can suck the strings down to the point where the frets interfere with them causing buzzing too.  The solution is increasing the distance between the pup and strings and see if this helps.

[Mark Pollock]

Let's not assume that is correct until it is confirmed, which is really easy. Put a damper under the string at the first fret, a piece of cloth or something. Now try playing the offending notes. If the buzz is gone, then you might well be right, it would be a slightly low nut slot.
You can double confirm this via the terrible fix of putting a slip of index card in the slot to raise the action, and then testing it again.
As far as filling the slot goes, the best way is, of course, to make a new nut that is just right, but that may not be practical. Very carefull filling of the slot with baking soda and CA glue may work, but has it's own risks, such as glue where you don't want it.
Let me put it this way. The hardest way to do this is trying to fill the slot, and eventually making a new nut anyways.

[Ned Knepp]

There is a lot of very good advice already from people who are a lot better at this than I am so I'll just add that having some string height measurements might help us know what we are thinking about.

While reading your original post, my first thought was that you are talking about two different buzzes. The first  came from your saying that the string only buzzes while played open when you push the guitar hard which just may be a function of a low action and heavy pick/ aggressive attack. If that's the case, this particular buzz may be  a bit of a "red herring" when combined with the other buzzes but may indicate that the action is a bit low for  your particular playing style.

The other thing I though of is that  I don't remember the last time I saw an archtop that didn't have an adjustable bridge. As a test, I'd probably try raising the bridge just a hair on the treble side and see if that makes a difference with the "held" string buzz. It's an easy thing to do, easily reversible and could give you a better idea of what's going on.

Yet another personal opinion; From past experience, I've decided that is counter productive to make assumption about the source of a buzz. Too many time, I would have sworn that it was a fret and it wasn't. One "fret buzz" was a missing spacer on a new tuner and I have two different archtop instruments that have a strip of felt woven between strings at the tail piece to solve a "fret" buzz.  

[Pete Andreev]

I filled the slot with some bone dust and a drop of CA. Filed the slot a bit to give it a nice rounded bottom.

I have the string sitting about as low as it'll go without repeating the same problem. The weird thing is that it's sitting higher than the 2nd string, so it isn't matching the general fretboard radius arc shape. I've never seen this on any of my guitars before...starting to make me lean towards thinking the problem isn't the nut height but instead the fret height...?

[Mark McLean]

Pete, I am beginning to think that your best course of action is to put this instrument into the hands of a professional repairer  and then learn lots from the conversation that ensues.  Buzz diagnosis, fret and nut setup, there are dozens of variables which a good technician will evaluate in a matter of minutes and get you focused on the correct issue. 

[Paul Verticchio]

I back what Marks says 100%. Make that 200%.

With 'action' work, the devil is TRULY in the details.  However, the hard part is knowing which details to address and when and how to address them.

Hope it turns out well for you :)

[Ned Knepp]

300% for Mark's idea.

 

Not to be antagonistic, but because we've all seen this many times and not pointing it out won't help you.

You received good advice from some very good professional repairmen in this thread ( not including myself there) and don't appear to have paid that much attention to it. From what I can see, it's very possible that running with your assumption ended up creating another issue that needs to be handled.  I'm willing to bet that most of us have done that a time or two, too but that doesn't change the fact that it sounds like you now have another problem to fix.  At this point, Mark's suggestion seem to be a sound one. Take it to someone that can help you more "hands on". Just don't forget to let us know what going on with it now.

[Andrew]

(Harrison phipps I stole your pic)