Loose end pin jack

[LARRY KLOSE]

I have a Baggs Anthem SL in my flattop and the end pin jack with preamp attached is loose from the inside.  My guess is that the inside bolt that snugs up against the tail block has come loose.  The nut on the outside is tight against the washer that backs it up (and bottoms on the shoulder of the end pin) but there is definitely space on the inside and the jack wobbles and moves in and out about 1/8".

Normally, I'd take this back to the shop that installed it but it's in the Bay Area and I'm in Tucson.  

I can't get my big arm all the way to the end block on the inside, even with an over-sized sound hole.  

Any suggestions on how to approach this?

Thanks,

Larry

[LARRY KLOSE]

Looking further at the Baggs installation sheet and comparing with my installation, it looks like my installer didn't use the locking nut on the outside of the jack--just the strap ring and washer.  Perhaps this is the source of the problem... ?

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Larry.

This is a common occurrence even when the jack is initially installed perfectly.

Any repairperson should be able to fix this for you in about 10 minutes for a very small charge (a 'good guy' might do it for free).

BTW: The lock-washer goes on the inside of the guitar, not the exterior.  Doing that would kill the finish around the jack.

Do we have anyone in the Tuscon area that can assist Larry?

Best of luck,

Paul

[David Collins]

Endpin jack installation should be simple, but still seems to leave much room for error. I'm not entirely sure how to post a series of pics and instructions here, but I did put up a summary on a facebook page here if you can view it. Hopefully it should shed a bit of light on the issue. 

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.113600518747043.19651.1006...

[Len Biglin]

LARRY I think they use the fishman jack/strap pin , you need to remove the strap holding ring , which just screws off the jack , Then there is a hole drilled across the shaft of the jack , you put a little allen key or nail thru the hole so the jack cant turn , loosen the nut, shove a 1/4 dowel in the jack and remove the nut and washer . Push the jack inside to the soundhole , where you can move the adjusting nut toward the end a little . then install in reverse, no need to go inside . Len

[LARRY KLOSE]

Thanks for the facebook page--very clear.  It looks like my installer drilled a 1/2" hole so the jack is a little sloppy in the hole--probably the source of the problem from moving while playing.  The rest looks pretty straightforward.  So with the hole a little large, should I shim the jack or ??.  If I shim it, what would be a good material?

I do know a couple of good luthiers in Tucson so that shouldn't be a problem.  My rule is to never undertake a home project unless there's a known, competent backup available.  That's how the pros stay in business<G>.

One question: is the outer nut recessed into the strap button?  Also, is a Baggs jack any different than a Fishman?  Maybe it doesn't matter as all the hardware seems to fit.

Thanks,

Larry

PS: The Baggs installation manual specifies a 1/2" hole, so I can't lay this all off on the installer.  The remainder of the install is great--the system sounds fantastic.

[David Collins]

If the hole is reamed to 1/2" you shouldn't necessarily have to shim the jack. The most key point is coordinating the inner nut adjustment so that just when the outer nut is starting to get good and tight against the finish/wood, it will hit the large inner face of the jack. This allows you to torque the nut down tight and lock it in without placing undue pressure on the finish/wood, keeps the washer supported from caving in, and you shouldn't have to worry about it coming loose. 

And yes, the outer nut is covered and concealed by the outer strap button. Baggs does use a different jack than Fishman (Italian vs Switchcraft), but although the thread pitch is different, the diameters are essentially the same. 

And if you have a long 1/4" dowel or rod, you should never have to reach your arm inside the soundhole. Just push the rod in to the jack before fully removing the outer nut, and then once the nut is off you can push it in to right below the soundhole, make adjustments to the inner nut(s), and draw it back in to the endpin hole quite easily. 

I know that some manufacturers officially list a 1/2" hole in their instructions, and you can't really fault an installer for following manufacturer recommendations. I've just found that these instructions seem to be poorly thought out and arguably flawed, missing a key point which can contribute to common problems over time. If the nut adjustments are coordinated just right though, it should still be fine. I do occasionally shim the jack in large holes, sometimes with tubing, sometimes just with masking tape to provide a bit of side support for the occasional cable jerk, but it's not always necessary. 

[Paul Verticchio]

Whew. What a tempest in a teapot.

Larry, this is a guitar repair 101 issue. It's a common everyday issue. It IS NOT a sign of faulty workmanship. It's no big deal to fix. The fix will not (w/ultra-rare exceptions) require any shimming.  The jacks adjust from the inside & outside.

Just take it to a repairer who's arm can get into the soundhole or who uses Len's "perfect procedure". They'll realign/adjust the jack & you'll be back in business in no time flat..like 10 minutes.

All of these systems use the same OEM Switchcraft jack.  There's no magic or mystery to it.

"Just do it" (:

Best of luck.

[Chris Rochow]

If you need to remove the jack from the guitar....use a 1/4" dowel into the jack....sliding the dowel to the soundhole..from there you may add on the lock washer, etc.  Now it just a simple matter of drawing the dowel, with jack firmly on it.... through the hole and affix with the exterior nut..BTW. Frank has a GREAT gizmo that I use to tighten the nut onto the jack!  Jack the Gripper .......http://www.gryphonstrings.com/mercantile/Accessories.php

[John]

I think endpin jacks loosening is a humidity issue. I even bought an expensive pair of channel locks with nylon jaws to try to get that outer strap pin nut extra tight......it seems -40 to plus 40 (Celsius) will have it's way with endpin jacks, despite my best efforts I still have to retighten my own installs periodically.

[Mark A. Kane]

Loctite 222 is your friend. It's not a threadlocker in the traditional sense. It's designed to simply hold a screw in place that's subject to vibration without bonding it so tightly as to render it unmovable. In a former life I used to program machine tools for the metalworking industry (metal-cutting lasers and CNC turret punches). If you've ever stood next to a working turret punch you'll know what real noise and vibration is. They punch holes in sheet metal at rates of 300-500 hits per minute at 20+ tons each stroke, so things (like the floor!, and bystanders!) jump around quite a bit, and you don't want anything to come loose The operators used Loctite 222 on a lot of the machine to keep things in place without making permanent bonds. I use it on problematic saddle screws, endpin jacks etc. Oddly enough, you have to SHAKE IT WELL before use.

[Hesh Breakstone]

Someone should invent a tool that holds the jack from turning from the inside....  ;)

[Thomas James]