Transparency: How far should I be actually going?

[Kerry Krishna]

 For the 3rd time in the last 18 months, I had to just write a note to a person that may likely kill a possible deal that I buy a much wanted axe off of them. Here is some background history to bring you up to date... 

  So I host Facebook's 'Kay Kraft Guitar' site. I have been collecting these flawed beauties going on two and a half years now.  I have, (I am pretty sure) the largest collection of them. I also would not have been able to collect them at all if I was not a repair person as they are all heavily damaged.

I decided last year in Jan, that I wanted to get all the KK two point family. I still have around another 20 to get, and some of them are pretty hard to come by.

  Here is the dilemma: A gent contacted me about 6 weeks ago asking for a possible estimate on a KK guitar.   HE wished to have a ballpark of it's worth, without sending me any info at all on it.I took it for granted that it was a regular 14 fret Kay Kraft mahogany, and I told him the regular selling price range on Ebay,and left it to him to send me pictures when he could take them.

 Well, he sent me the pics yesterday, and I was pretty surprised to see that  it is one of the rare ones that I need for the collection. It is in quite sad shape, and will need about 1k in repairs to get it  in good playing order, the axe only sells for $1200 without a HSC, and $1400 with.

  I had to explain to the guy right at the top of the letter that I had an ethical problem talking to him about it, just because I was also in need of owning one. So at least I got it out of the way, and he knows that I will not be taking him for a ride. I even went so far as to say that he may be better off selling it on Ebay if money for it was his main concern.

This exact same situation has happened to me twice before, and I conducted myself the exact same way. In June, I was contacted by a 85 year old woman with a Maple  KK tenor guitar that was in relatively good shape.

I gave the same speech to her, told her all the selling prices for this axe in the last 2 years, told her that I could not come close to those offers, and she would be better off selling it on Ebay. She took two days and got back to me telling me it would be in good hands if she sold it to me.

   I guess that I am just seeing what you folks think about all this. I REALLY want/need/have to be transparent in my online dealings with folks. Money has never been my god either, though I have been on the receiving end of guitars were, that has been the exact case with the sellers. Money just does not motivate me to compromise myself.

You know, it would be so easy to just make this guy an  offer after telling him all that was wrong with it, and lowball the price. 

That is not me though. I would rather kill the sale possibly and be 'known' to be honest.

  I imagine that everyone here has had similar experiences .... 

 

[Kerry Krishna]

Here is a 14 fret Mahogany Kay Kraft from 1933

[Jeff Highland]

Honesty is it's own reward.

But if you want to further your collection, stop giving estimates, just ask people to name their price and take it or leave it

[Bart van Weperen]

Ha: moral issues…

So Kerry, your "dilemma" is that one the one side you are "hired" to do an evaluation, and on the other hand you personaly could have some interest in "under evaluating"…

Wouldn’t this be solved if you would stop evaluation for your cliënt, and start evaluating for yourself as purchaser? Of course you would inform the cliënt on this "change in alliance"… and the cliënt can always try to get a second, third etc oppinion…

In the end it is a matter of two parties having to agree on the price.  And there can be a lot to consider when making a bid… (and in accepting one!)

[Mark Pollock]

I'm not sure how any value can have validity in the insane market right now, especially when it ones to instruments needing repair. On he one hand, it seems fair to pay the difference of the value of the instrument minus the estimated market cost of repairs, regardless of who will do those repairs. On the other hand, the market for damaged quality guitars has been insane lately. When I see guitars that are incredibly damaged going for three or four hundred dollars, when a clean version old go for six hundred, something is wrong.

If you are offering a service, you need to stay as ethical ad you want people to think you are. If you are acting as a consumer, then you don't have to worry about it, as the seller is setting the terms you wprk with. But, as you have already pointed out, you can't just switch from one to another without full disclosure.

[Thomas James]

I stopped helping people with value estimates. That water is always murky. I point them to the internet and/or the Vintage Price Guide. If I am interested in buying; I do what Jeff recommends and simply ask their price. That is usually answered with a "what will you give me".  At that point all is open and fair. 

[William F.Eden]

KERRY that is the problem with being an honest person we will never get rich because we don't have the nerv to take advantage of someone. I myself have had to stop doing repaires as I could not bring myself to charge the person what i should . I don't do any building any more ether  because we have priced ower selves right out of bisness.P.S I guess I just got tired of telling pepole that I don't live on a bowl of Rice a day and I don't ride a Bicycle for transportation. good luck with your colection. Bill..............

[Ned Knepp]

Kerry, I don't think you are doing anything wrong either. I understand why people are coming to you for information. You are getting a reputation on the Internet as a very good resource for KK information so it only follows that people will ask you for values. I think the choice is yours to give them a value or not and as long as you are honest in that estimate and honest about your desire to purchase the instrument, you have nothing to worry about. If you make an offer and they accept it, you have done your "due diligence" in the matter. If they reject your evaluation because you are also interested in purchasing the instrument, well, they can always find someone else to give them an estimate more to their liking. As long as you maintain your integrity, you have nothing to worry about.

[Stuart Horsman]

Kerry,

 Like yourself, I am sometimes called upon to make "appraisals." The few time that I have been interested in owning the instrument, I have given the owner a written appraisal, and then followed it with a "what I can afford" offer. Whether my offer is accepted is then at the discretion of the owner. There are too many stories in the antique furniture market of dealers making offers in lieu of appraisals. Hope this helps a bit, or at least extends the discussion... Stuart

[Kerry Krishna]

These are all great posts. I just wanted to open up a dialog about this here, as ethics is a pretty hot topic these days.

The whole 45 minutes  that I was writting the note to the guy yesterday, I knew I was likely shooting myself in the foot as far as me ending up buying it in the end. 

 I am not actually all that upset about it either. My collection is getting more than slightly unmanageable as it is, and I find myself starting to buy 'doubles' of axes that I already have. In the case of this particular axe, I have an intact one in the pipeline for April that is already 'tickity-boo'd' up and needs nothing but a player like me . If I buy this guys KK, and fix it up, I may just have it as another project, and I am good with that.

   It is so odd finding these online in less than terrific shape, and having to buy them to hedge my bets that I will never find another one that is in better shape. 

  At some point in the next few years, I am pretty sure that I will have to sell a few of the 'not perfect' ones that I am able to double. That will be an interesting thing also, as I have not sold any yet. 

  I am a full disclosure kind of guy, so I may enter a new little part of my life...  

[Robbie Collins]

An interesting question is whether being honest is also in your self-interest.  Your short-term self-interest in this situation might be to get a deal on an instrument that you want to check off your list. Your long term self-interest includes the effect of undervaluing (i.e., lying about) an instrument to save a few bucks. You bring your reputation to every situation whether it's buying a guitar, estimating a repair, speaking up at your neighborhood association, or talking with neighbors. If you get a reputation of deceiving people to buy collectable guitars that info will spill into all other social and business transactions.

I've been in the same situation many times. Friends and acquaintances know I acquire guitars and often ask what they are worth and if I want to buy them. I tell them "this is what it's worth to me," give them a brief explanation of valuation, and point them to eBay with caveats.

eBay isn't actually a good guide to market price. Market price is what the average person will pay while on eBay there may be someone jonesing for a specific item who also has the wherewithal to outbid others (Steven Segal and Richard Gere both collect guitars). Competitive markets require many, many buyers and sellers of specific goods to reach an equilibrium price. On eBay there are many buyers but relatively few sellers.

[Thomas James]

I used to get the "I saw one go on eBay for X amount less than what your asking". My reply was always: "Well, I guess you missed a good deal."  

Honesty does have a real return. I had a older woman approach me with a beautiful Gibson 335 her husband left behind. She had just left a Super Sized Guitar outlet. They had offered her $1000. I found her a buyer at $8000. I got a finders fee commission. She returned a few weeks later with a car load of stuff. She gave it all to me for a song. She insisted that I had helped her break the ice to finally cleaning out the old music room.  Even more future business came my way as it seems she was friends with the widows of many musician friends of her late husband.

Good luck building your KK collection.

[Kerry Krishna]

What a nice post Thomas. And Robbie, your thoughts are spot on. You are so correct in that every time that we deal with other folks in this small world of ours, it speaks to our overall reputation.  

 You know, it is way more about how I feel about myself, and the way I conduct my affairs than anything else. If I loose out, or get slagged online I feel horrible.  

You should see the shooting match that I lost on the Cafe a few months ago. It made me incredibly sad as I was totally taken to the cleaners by another guy who called me online for info about Kay Krafts. I was as honest with him as I am being here, and the guy was my 'new best friend' on Facebook for a whole week. I spent about 4 hours chatting on Facebook with him exchanging cool information. He even talked me into posting on a thread (I thought would be a quite bad idea, as far as my personal ethics were concerned, but I trusted him.)

He was trying to bump up interest in the instrument so he could get way more money for it than what he had bought it for.   I had no clue that was what he was doing...

 I did NOT see that coming. I took it for granted that he was 'just like me' as he was just mirroring all the things I talked to him about. At the end of that week, I finished all my research, and told online my findings,  on the axe in question.

He not only defriended me on Facebook, and told whoever was reading the thread that he had done so on Facebook because I was trying to lowball him on the price that he thought he should be getting, that I was trying to rip him off.

I certainly never responded to him online, because that is not me, but it truly leaves my wondering when it will happen again.

 He turned out to BE one of those folks so often talked about who have $ signs tattooed on his eyeballs.

 After he used me during that whole week, he sold the axe for twice what he paid, and the guy who bought it off of him put it up for twice what he paid!  

I have no time or effort for humans who conduct themselves is such a way.

 A friend told me a few weeks ago about some Philosophy dude who said something along the lines of 'If you have an ethical decision to make, ALWAYS take the harder path, and you will never go wrong' .

On another note, I am happy to tell you,  the owner of the axe this thread is based on just contacted me, thanked me for the honesty, and said he is interested in making a deal on the axe after all is said and done. I am vera pleased, and we will see were this goes for me.