Bridge Saddle & Nut Materials

[Brian T. Williams]

Hi,

Is there any way of confirming what material a bridge and/or nut are made from. I have just acquired a fantastic, all solid wood guitar, a real bargain, but I suspect that the bridge saddle is plastic; I'm not so sure about the nut. (I re-surfaced the saddle before re-stringing and it seemed to be very soft compared with bone and tusq, both of which I have worked in the past).

Is there any way of testing the saddle and nut, in situ on the instrument, in order to find out with any certainty.

 

Cheers.........Brian

[Kerry Krishna]

 Murray, I am thinking that those statements that you just made would make you a pretty terrific student.   After doing my first 35 refrets, I was still coming across all kinds of situations I had never dealt with before, and still learning. Nuts are something else though, and sometimes I am still having problems with them.

What happens with me is that I generally only have to make 3 or 4 in a year, and I forget certain parts. I am WAYY too human in that reguard.

 As far as Tusq VS Bone, I have always replaced the tusq nuts and saddles and would love to hear who the bigtime Luthiers are who are using Tusq.

 It certainly makes no sense to me. It is usually the 1st thing replaced on Martin guitars too. Straight out of the store to a Luthier's shop.

Why would that be I wonder?

 

[John]

I've taught a number of people how to make a nut over the years. Bottom line, some nailed it the first time and some are probably still doing it wrong. I'm often impressed by the level of craftsmanship I see coming from occasional and first time builders. I'm in awe of some of the builders I know personally. I'm sometimes disappointed in  guitars made by or worked on by people that have years of so called experience. 

Anyone can call themselves a Luthier (someone that builds and repairs Lutes) but that doesn't make them good at it. Some people are good at repairing and some are good at building in the end you get good at the thing you do the most. If you want to take a crack at making a bone nut you should go for it. You might be one of the guys that gets it right away.

90% of TUSQ sales are for premade nuts and saddles it's a reasonably good material that is great for manufacturers. I know a lot of builders,

not one of them uses TUSQ.

[Hesh Breakstone]

The assertion that it may take 100 nuts to get it right may also refer to a standard of work that is perhaps... higher than just making a nut that get's by....and/or gets someone paid...

 

I never had to make 100 nuts and along with this statement was also a bit of a tradition with some of the folks who trained me of taking the recently completed nut and pitching it without really looking at it.  It's as much a tradition and right-of-passage with some of these Luthiers that I know as anything else. 

 

The idea is that the more one does something the better, most of the time..., they are likely to get.

 

Regarding your assertion, Murray, that the idea of repetitive training is more a statement of the "calibre of person who studies under these masters" that's rather insulting personally and uncalled for...

 

Brian good going on the saddle that you made and hopefully it gave you an opportunity to get a feel for working with bone, how if files, sands, polishes, etc.  You could try a nut just be advised that IMHO there are more opportunities for making mistakes including mistakes that may damage your guitar such as removing the old nut if it was finished in and if one does not score the finish.  Nut slots, since they don't show... are at times subject to not being flat and uniform once we remove the factory nut and flatting the nut slot is often one of the first things we have to do prior to making the new nut.

 

In addition, something that I still struggle with is shaping the new nut not just so it fits but so that it's mass where ever not needed, excess mass, is removed in favor of having the new nut follow ALL of the contours of the neck and fret board and of course cosmetically blend into the peg head as well.

 

Lastly and as previously mentioned there is no idiot proof (not referring to present company) way to cut nut slots in both the proper position and as low as necessary without going too low.  There is also the issue of what angle to cut the slots and how to avoid the dreaded sitar sound... It's a acquired skill and unless someone is superman... I do believe that everyone could benefit from cutting the slots on 100 nuts when they are new to nut making.  I cut so very many either too deep or not deep enough that a good portion of that first 100 or so nuts will likely not be something that one should or could charge for and instead have to be done over.  Unfortunately often nuts with uneven spacing, the wrong depth for the slots, or shapes and contours that don't match the neck and fretboard curves are installed on guitars.  Not to mention nut slots that are not as low as they should be making the thing more difficult to play than it should be.  At the end of the day and unlike other things with set standards nut making is as much about personal standards as anything else.

[Russell Vance]

Amen to that Hesh, I agree;  it's very easy to talk big and loud in an environment where one's work is not under scrutiny of ones peers or superiors - I've blown more nuts (made a few lefties as well) than a lot of people have made and I am probably in the middle of the bell curve with a lot of the senior guys on this forum.

But, like many of my peers I have lost count of the number of nuts made and also recognise and accept the simple fact that professionals in the industry use various types of material as the situation dictates.  Some cheap instruments do not warrant bone or TusQ - some production instruments or high volume models are well suited to using drop-in, pre-slotted, accurate and consistent TusQ material or self lubing material such as slippery Tusq or Delrin for trem type situations.  Many high quality instruments do just fine with Tusq or synthetics.   Similarly, some heavy hitters specify string-saver synthetic material to minimise string breakage.

We charge a lot for hard bone, and the unbleached stuff looks a treat on a lot of guitars, but I have no hesitation using Tusq on instruments where consistency, unit cost, labor and wastage are factors - if you have plenty of cheap time and cost is not a factor I suppose high quality bone is a traditional choice by low volume makers or amateurs (the passionate kind, not the incompetent kind) - but I always check my prejudices at the door these days - too many good products around in this very competitive field.  

Finally, I suppose it is moot, but Fender, Gibson and PRS are examples of respected major manufacturers who all use synthetics across all levels of quality and price. Rusty.   

[Mark Pollock]

Ah, if we could only go back to the days of the screw-on metal Danelectro nut. (Were those things aluminum?)

 

Mark

[Hesh Breakstone]

Very well said Rusty!!!

 

I have a client who is in the business of flipping anything and everything that he considers "vintage."  As such it's important to him to keep his costs as low as possible and endeavor to sell what he's flipping for as much as possible.  Often my services are cost prohibitive to his business plan so he attempts things on his own that usually make his life and mine... complicated. 

 

One example is a Gibson Acoustic that he brought me all the while exclaiming over and over that he wants me to keep the action that the guitar currently has but "repair" the nut as needed.

 

Three of the strings had the slots cut way too low and were literally laying on the first couple of frets.  Yep - that's low action all right.... ;)  The nut's slots were cut with something like an X-acto saw and as such could probably accommodate multiple strings in a single slot...  The nut was a replacement also replaced by my client and he never scored the finish (Gibsons are finished with the nut in place) before removing the nut so the finish was all chipped up.  And of course to add insult to injury he had attempted to touch up the ends of the nut with nail polish....  Gobs of it....

 

Ain't life great... LOL

 

Anyway it was so very difficult attempting to explain to him that his nut could not be saved and regardless of what he had read about filling nut slots that are too deep with CA and dust the nut had so very many other.. issues that I would only be able to make him a new nut instead of working with his.... nut.  He objected, I suggested that he take the gutiar someplace else because I don't want my name on shotty workmanship.  He relented and then proceeded to get back to the idea that he wanted me to preserve the action as low as it was with his nut.

 

I explained in no uncertain terms that low action on this guitar was very much a function of many things but first it's the nut slots and that the action that he now had (it was unplayable with three strings in contact with the frets...) was not the expectation that I could set for him when I was finished with it.  Of course he objected again, I made the suggestion that he go somewhere else again, he relented and left me with the guitar.

 

When he picked it up he sat there and looked and looked at the nut over and over from side to side and he played the guitar for a spell too saying nothing.  The first thing he did say was to ask me if the nut was really bone...  I guess the look on my reddening face warned him off because he quickly added that it's so very shiny it looks "great."

 

Anyway he took his guitar, paid the bill, and other than a few conversations since where he asked me to do a bridge reglue on a lifting bridge and objected to my price indicating that all it needs is a "squirt" of medium CA... I've not seen him since.

 

I like to attempt to learn something from every situation and every person that I interact with in the guitar repair world.  My Take-away from this guy was not to condemn him or even find humor in what he sincerely believed but more over to understand that many folks just don't know this stuff like a trained Luthier might.  And that's probably why we exist in this world because this stuff, quality guitar repair is as much an art as it is a skill and the learning seems to never end.

 

I tend to be a worrier about all manner of stuff and as such I probably am not ideally suited for this profession in so much as we will always be handed a problem often with little information proactively offered.  We will uncover issues not even known of by the guitar's current owner and be expected to simply deal with it in the most honest, efficient, cost effective, and "correct and respectful" manner for the instrument at hand. 

 

Kind of like being a doctor but without all the money.... ;)  Sorry for being long winded it's yet another bad habit of mine. 

 

Lastly if you wanna see another customers shot at nut making check this out:  http://www.lenaweelutherie.info/styled/styled-2/files/dsc03606.jpg

[Ned Knepp]

Hesh,

 I think you're being too nice to the guy with the Gibson. Not knowing "stuff like a trained Luthier" isn't an excuse. He brought the guitar to you. Obviously he knew enough to know that the instrument required better work than he was capable of doing. What you described sound to me like someone that was too busy trying to impress you and too tight fisted to pay for your expertise.   

 

As an amateur, I don't do a lot of nuts from scratch. I've done a few. In this case (Brian's) I would say what so many have recommended in saddle replacement; Save the original nut and try your hand at making a replacement. If a person wants to learn, at some point they must actually try to do it. I've never managed to make a good nut in one try. The first one I made was produced from a piece of walnut. It proved to be a disaster so I tried again... and again...and again... ( the original plastic nut was broken and glued back together again... and again...)  I finally managed to make a workable nut on maybe the 6th or 7th try. That is, it worked but it wasn't very good or very pretty and I ended up buying another plastic nut and replacing it  within a month. I was 17.

 

NOW, I know how to make a nut out of bone that will work after I adjust it... again ...and again... In short, I can do it but it takes way too much time to be cost effective if I had to get paid for the time. The point is that anyone that wants to learn has to try, as long as they understand that they may have to keep on trying and may ultimately have to seek out expert help if they can't get it right.

 

 

[Hesh Breakstone]

Ned I completely agree with you and as for being too nice interacting with clients in person and real time  can be a bit different than swapping stories here.  But I agree with you that the guy was trying to save $$ and probably uncomfortable being in a position where his knowledge was not sufficient for the tasks at hand.

 

My take-away from the rest of your post is that you have to let people try and even fail at times if necessary.  Do I understand you correctly, Ned?  That's my hope and if I nailed your point I think that it's a good one and I thank you kindly for your insights.

 

A great deal of the repair work I do, including the bass on my bench at the moment with a stripped truss rod nut... has been attempted by the owner or store or someone else prior.  In some ways that's a part of this business that will never go away and the rest of us including me just have to accept that folks are always going to be well intentioned, and/or cheap... ;)

 

I think it's fine for someone to attempt to make their own nuts but I also think that when they ask us on a forum such as this that the expectation should be set as realistically as possible including listing some of the possibilities of damaging the finish, slipping with a file and gouging the first fret or peg head, etc.  I'm all for sharing the info but this includes the pitfalls as well as the seemingly easy things.  If you check out my site you will see that I am about as far from being a "close to the vest" sort as they come.  Instead you will see lots of articles that have been used by countless people according to my Google Analytics to teach folks lots of things about guitar building.  These were certainly prepared as instructional materials with the eye on encouraging others to take a shot at it yourself.  So I am already there in agreeing with you that we have to let folks try, fail, succeed, etc.  It's simply important to me to add as much info as possible so as to not leave anyone hanging and/or result in damage to a guitar.

 

By the way my nut making experience was much like yours so don't get discouraged as I once did...  At some point much of it becomes automatic and with more experience we develop a bit of an "eye" for the aesthetics of the thing too...

 

My hats off to ya for your perseverance and dedication as well as your very true words here.  Thanks buddy!

[Ned Knepp]

Hesh, 

 You got me just fine.

Since I don't depend on this for a living, I have the luxury of time. When I start to get in over my head, I stop until I figure it out. I spend a LOT of time planning what I am going to do to an instrument then spend more time observing and thinking as I work. Probably the biggest part of my time, as I work on one of my projects, is in looking and thinking. I have learned to make a nut that is pretty good but I have no reason to be particularly fast at it so my approach, while functional, wouldn't be cost effective for someone that needs to make money on it. 

 

I agree that the pitfalls should be part of our discussion too but it is pretty easy to make a "do-able" job, seen too complicated to the neophyte. I agree that a nut is deceptively complicated and that care and thought are called for but it's not a neck reset and in my opinion, on the scale of complicated things to do to a guitar, tends toward the lower end rather than the higher. In a case where the nut is being replaced because it is made of an undesirable material, it can be used as a rough template and can be reserved to return the "repair" to point 0 for a restart.

 

In short, it is important to carefully look at the job to determine potential pitfalls and it is also part of our responsibility as advice givers to point as many of those out as we can but in the end, the only way to learn how to do something is to do it. Until a person actually does something, the knowledge is all second hand.

[John]

I'm good at what I do and I'm busy, so for me, contrary to what Rusty says, bone is cheaper, faster, sounds better and looks better. It costs me less to make a bone nut than it does to look for a premade one that fits the guitar I'm working on. I have a box full of tusq nuts and saddles that have come off of Martins, Larrivees and Taylors but nobody wants them. The manufacturers use them because they can have them made to fit their guitars with little or no adjustment. The same manufacturers use bone on higher end models. Like Kerry I'd like to know which builders are using Tusq.

My advice on cutting nut slots is start with a low top profile and cut the slots a little bit at a time. Get used to the files you have so you know how they cut. I've been using the same set for 20yrs. Always start at the treble side because the thinner files cut faster, most people will hurry towards the end of a repetitive task.  I used to overstraighten the neck a bit as a way of being cautious when I cut nut slots, I don't do this anymore.

Making a nut is largely technique and patience.

[Paul Verticchio]

"I have a box full of tusq nuts and saddles that have come off of Martins, Larrivees and Taylors but nobody wants them."

If you're willing to give them away, I'll take them off your hands and (of course) pay for the shipping.  I refurb a lot of inexpensive guitars fo beginners, students & hobbyists. These would be great for those instruments after they're correctly fitted.

PM me at [e-mail] if this sounds good to you.

Thanks (:

[John]

Sorry Paul I have a couple of school programs up north that I support with this kind of stuff.