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K and K Mini output as compared to a single coil or humbucking...

 I have been told that a K and K mini signal output with a 6 foot cord and no preamp would be  about 15/20 % of that of a single coil Strat pickup or a humbucking pickup.

   Has anyone here actually done a comparison or know if this is true? I would be interested in piezos such as Fishmans and others as a whole compared to the two I mentioned. 

   There is an interesting thread yet again on one of the guitar sites I am on discussing not using preamps at all with a K and K mini. I just need some more info to confirm or deny what I just wrote. Thanks Forum! ...Kerry K 

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K and K say that the Mini system has sufficient output to drive "most"  PA's and amps directly.   They also have a pre-amp available.  That's pretty much all you need to know - put one in, turn it on,  and see what happens.  If it isn't loud enough put a pre-amp in the system - modern systems are low noise and can stand a lot of volume/gain without getting hissy.   The pickup is well reviewed and according to a quick web search does the job well.

Most under-saddle pups use dedicated pre-amps due to their transducer types and are different critters from the K and K which are probably small microphones of sorts (hence their susceptibility to feedback at higher levels and lower frequencies).  But, I haven't worked with them so anybody who has can probably improve on this musing.

I can't vouch for any electrical numbers, but I install them regularly and they have more than enough output to sufficiently drive any amp that I've tried. I have been installing these more often than under saddle pickups as they only require a nice clean bridge plate. I also find that they more accurately produce the natural sound of a guitar than an under saddle is capable of.  

I have installed many of the K&K Pure Mini pickups in acoustic guitars with very good results and pleased clients.  They are not microphones but piezo transducers that glue directly under the bridge saddle's position inside the guitar on the pin plate.  In my opinion, the amplified sound is better that under saddle pups.  I also like that they do not interfere with the bridge saddle/bridge/soundboard continuum that many of us work to optimize in order to get maximum transfer of energy from the strings to the soundboard.  Volume & tone are very good without a preamp but I recommend my clients use one for several reasons.  The additional EQ bands on the preamp are useful in getting a balanced tone and the phase switch can often eliminate feedback without reducing volume.  There are several very good acoustic guitar amps on the market that have all the preamp, EQ and phase switching needed with no need for a stand alone inline preamp.  The K&K and all other piezo pups are completely different than a strat or other electric guitar pups that use a varying magnetic field to induce a current in a coil of wire.  The transducer pups use the vibration of the soundboard (or the bridge saddle) to general a small electric current, more vibration yields more current up to a point. Comparing transducers to electric guitar pups is like trying to compare a sling shot to a shotgun, or a skateboard to a Prius, or a jaw harp to a Dobro, or Tiny Tim to James Brown, or ...

I like an old-school saddle fit, where I can pick up the unstrung guitar by the saddle with a pair of pliers.  I liken the necessarily looser fit that a quackstick requires, to a loose sparkplug.

Installing K&Ks, or other similar SBTs, with a medium viscosity CA glue rather than the supplied gel, provides better coupling to the bridgeplate.

Yep. I appreciate the great informative posts, but have known all this info for a long time.  I  am an advocate of this pickup system also. Thanks for that everyone,but the original question still stands... 

I'll do a listen test and post my results. I have at least one install of the mini to do tomorrow. But based on the fact that I rarely adjust the volume knob on my bench amp, I'd say the difference is closer to 85-90% of a single coil or humbucker (in the 7-9K range, not talking Duncan Invader here). I'll let you know.

Okay, 5 days later than promised but better late than never, though, honestly, I'm not sure what this proves. K&K mini in a D18 Golden Era vs Strat single coil of 6.8K through my Peavey Classic 20. Result: the volume of the K&K is only slightly lower, maybe 10-15%. K&K vs humbucker of 8.5K. Result: about the same as with the single coil! The real difference is in the noise levels of all three with the HB the quietest of course, and the other two tied for second. If I run the K&K through their Pure Preamp the signal is of course much quieter, and the output is on par with the HB.

This is all subjective (I knew that going in) but the initial premise of the K&K being only 10-15% as loud as the others struck me as a little off, so I wanted to test that assumption. 

Hope that helps.

Hi Mark.  Thanks for taking the time to conduct the experiments and to post the results.

I only want to take this opportunity to clear-up a pandemic misnomer about mag pickups.

Most people (musos & repair folk) equate the output of a pup with its DC resistance [DCR]- (i.e. 8.6K or 3.3K) with the higher resistance values equaling more output. This is not the best indicator for output nor does it tell an accurate story.

The DCR of the pup is more indicative of the tone of the pup with higher DCR's producing fewer highs. That statement is very broad.

The best spec for determining actual output is the output voltage of the pup, measured in millivolts (mv).

Without going to a bunch of sites to check manufacturers' spec's, I do know that DiMarzio publishes this spec. I wish more companies would.  I don't know how they measure but it sure makes it easier when trying to choose a calibrated custom set of pups.

Again, this is simply a very broad generalization posted only to clarify that DCR is not the end-all measurement and has less to do with output than tone.

Thanks again for the good work Mark (:

Hi Kerry.

I'd be suspect of the output comparison claim.  It sounds like total hogwash to me.

First of all, it's impossible to compare a piezo UBT like the K&K to a magnetic pickup.  That's like comparing a tuning key to a bridge. The magnetic pup senses the iron in the string.  The UBT senses the vibrating top.

Secondly, your "source" doesn't seem to know much about magnetic pups.  A typical humbucker w/ a 270-300 mv output has about 300% more output than a standard Strat style pup w/ a 90-100mv output.  So, using your info source's equation: if a K&K has 15-20% less output than a Strat pup, then it would have 45-60% less output than a normal HB pup.  Personally, I'd file that whole theory under "myths, legends & bullsh*t", with an emphasis on the latter (;

 Also, the sound quality of a magnetic pup and the K&K are on totally different sides of the coin.  Mag pups used on an acoustic make them sound like electric guitars regardless of the manufacturers' claims.

The K&K systems are great and I have several ultra finicky pro-player friends (strummers & finger-stylists) who swear by them and they've all had zero issues with them.  I've never gotten a call to install them but, based on my friends' experiences, I routinely recommend them without qualification.

As for preamps for acoustic instruments: If they don't think they need them now, they will when they get into a real performance situation.  If nothing else, their buffer circuit and high to low impedance transformer circuitry (DI box) are critically important. Built in EQ is also immensely desirable. If the performer doesn't use a preamp, I'm confident that any pro sound company would MAKE him/her use one to properly interface with their system.  It may not be needed in a coffeehouse setting, but why design stand alone systems with interface limitations? Personally, I favor outboard preamps for their ability to upgrade/change preamps & the XLR output connections.

Best of luck my friend (:

I cannot provide the math, but I like the question. I am thinking that going with your ears would give the best street volume comparison. Just plug and play on the same amp. I too like the K&K sound.

Yes, the question is strange... I agree that the comparison in terms of percentage is almost uncorrect.

The first criteria, in my opinion, is the sound. I mean the fidelity to reproduce the most natural sound of an acoustic instrument. All I can say is that I've installed the K&K pure western (not mini) on all my guitars and on many of my friends' and customers', taking away Fishmans and Shadows... and reaching much more better sounds. They're really loud enough if mounted directly, without the tape. I always used the gel they give with the pick-up without problems, but if Jeffrey says that CA glue is better... next time I'll try!

About preamps... maybe is not the volume the most important advantage, but the EQ management and feedback reduction. I also prefer external preamps because I don't like all those knobs peeping out from the side or the sound-hole.

Great reply Paul and Antonio. I think I may have all I need from this thread. It's so nice that this question can be asked and so many more knowledgeable folks than me pop in and state what they think! Much appreciated Forum! Thanks...

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